Just Because You're Herxing, Doesn't Guarantee You're Killing

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Mustard Seed
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   Posted 8/31/2016 3:27 PM (GMT -6)   
I've had a conundrum lately that goes like this:

Why, every time I increase the dosage of a herb or medication, do I get a herx reaction, but I never see any improvement following the flare-up?

I've had no improvement in my condition in a year of treatment, yet I've had countless herxes. What gives?

I've come across some interesting information in my searches.

Generally we think of herxes occurring when we're killing bacteria or protozoa, and our bodies are left with a toxic mess to clean up. But according to 2 highly respected doctors, this may not be the case in some instances.

Instead, in some cases, the herx may be an inflammatory response from the immune system when it recognizes a foreign invader, regardless of it's ability to actually kill it.

Here's a quote, this one regarding Protomyxzoa rheumatica (similar to Babesia):

"If you have ever heard of the Jarisch Herxheimer [clinical worsening due to the infectious agent dying off] reaction, we think what is going on in a Jarisch Herxheimer in these patients.... I mean usually when you treat these patients with drugs, say a lupus patient with Plaquenil, they feel terrible initially and it flares up their disease. So what's going on in that particular situation, I believe, is that the drug is getting to the organism somewhat and weakens it enough so that its antigens are exposed on the surface, and system can see this enough to produce a profound inflammatory response. And I think that is what the Jarisch Herxheimer actually is.

It's not necessarily cellular death; it's really the cytokines produced by the immune system trying to destroy the pathogen, but it can't really get at it very well. And a real limitation to therapy is this Jarisch Herxheimer reaction or inflammatory response. And, possibly, if we found the greatest drug in the world to kill this microorganism, the use of this drug would be limited because of this profound inflammatory response once you start to get at that organism".


Here's the full article:
protomyxzoa.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Protozoal-Infection-Dr-Frye-Interview.pdf

This isn't the first doctor I've heard talk about herxes like this. Dr. M has talked about how he generally sees clinical worsening at the beginning of treatment in patients he treats for Bartonella. He calls this NOT a "classic Jarisch Herxheimer reaction" but rather an "immune complex arthropathy and/or collagen associated inflammation".

Here's the source for that one (skip ahead to 1:19:45):
/www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_2438827843&feature=iv&src_vid=uYEHsRRxrQw&v=NJYwMMPJIkU

Bottom line here is this:

Just because you're herxing, does not necessarily mean you're killing anything. It could just be your immune system kicking up a fuss because now it sees it, but can't seem to get at it very well.

I've recently begun upping some of my herbs into unheard of territory for myself. 15 drops a day of MC-BAB-2 used to kill me. I've pushed through to 90 drops per day now, and after and initial rough patch, I don't feel any worse for wear now. I'm working on doing this with other herbs too.

Just some information for everyone!

Post Edited (Mustard Seed) : 8/31/2016 3:35:39 PM (GMT-6)


Traveler
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   Posted 8/31/2016 3:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Just a little disclaimer here:
For many, pushing through a herx can lead them into very dangerous territory, as it can lead to a massive increase in inflammation and set off essentially an anaphylactic type of reaction. So, while some may be able to push through minor to moderate herxing (what I call severe herxing will put a person in the hospital), others may not be so lucky.

Please exercise great caution if you plan on pushing through the herxing - and do everything you can do to help your body detox better instead. Usually getting and keeping inflammation under control will help a lot.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)

PeteZa
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   Posted 8/31/2016 3:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Whether you are killing spirochetes or they are dying because their life span is done, you need to eliminate them from your body. If your elimination systems are not functioning properly, it will be painful to some. I do not believe that everyone will herx though.
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Traveler
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   Posted 8/31/2016 4:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Kirky98 said...
I was told by my doc that herxing will create a more friendly environment for the infection to flourish. So you may be killing when herxing and figure the count should be lowering, but perhaps you are not gaining any ground because your body becomes a better breading ground for the infection to inhabit due to the increased inflammation etc...


This is why treatment for these infection must include rebuilding the immune function and supporting any body system that's not functioning well. Otherwise it's only creating a void that will be filled with whatever is nearby and prolific enough.

Herxing by definition:
Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction
[jä′ris herks′hīmər]
Etymology: Adolph Jarisch, Austrian dermatologist, 1850-1902; Karl Herxheimer, German dermatologist, 1861-1944
a transient, short-term immunological reaction commonly seen after antibiotic treatment of early and later stages of syphilis and less often in other diseases, such as borreliosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, and trichinosis. It is seen in 50% of patients with primary syphilis and 90% of those with secondary syphilis. Manifestations include fever, chills, headache, myalgias, and exacerbation of cutaneous lesions. The reaction has been attributed to liberation of endotoxin-like substances or antigens from the killed or dying microorganisms, but its exact pathogenesis is unclear.


It has been established that this is due to endotoxins. For those that aren't quite sure what an endotoxin is:
endotoxin [en´do-tok″sin]
a heat-stable toxin associated with the outer membranes of certain gram-negative bacteria, including Brucella, Neisseria, and Vibrio species. Endotoxins are not secreted but are released only when the cells are disrupted; they are less potent and less specific than the exotoxins; and they do not form toxoids. In large quantities they produce hemorrhagic shock and severe diarrhea; smaller amounts cause fever, altered resistance to bacterial infection, leukopenia followed by leukocytosis, and numerous other biologic effects.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)

caramba
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   Posted 8/31/2016 4:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Probably a good reason to also take anti-inflamatory herbs during the process, besides detox

PeteZa
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   Posted 8/31/2016 4:27 PM (GMT -6)   
Amen caramba!
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caramba
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   Posted 8/31/2016 5:11 PM (GMT -6)   
interesting and timely discussion. I just had a mild Herx (dizzyness,fatigue) when I added skullcap, Dan shen and Cordyceps to my Buhner protocol. none of them have anti-bacteria effects, but more to do with Cytokine, and Immune remodulation.

Mine tapered off the first day and leveled to a low level after a few days, but I still feel it.

The article makes sense to me.

bluelyme
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   Posted 8/31/2016 5:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Ay carumba ..shut down cytokine response i give buhner that ...however bartonella doesnt have endotoxins yet people herx ..i tend to agree with mustard ..we need to ketchup with what our body sees ... i did iv abx ,iv silver ,herbs and bvt in a day and had a fever response ..i run 97.0...i think i was finally killing some bart ...had to grab some wall but it was sort worth it to push the envelope ...darn these bugs

Krimpet 🍔
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   Posted 8/31/2016 5:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Very interesting discussion.

Mustardseed said: "......I don't feel any worse for wear now." So my question is since you are saying that you haven't been getting any better, are you expecting to feel better now that you've raised your drops that much? I'm wondering if it is something else that your body needs to push more towards wellness. Is there something else that you should be looking into?

I will be interested to hear more about this especially once you have upped your drops with the other herbs.
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August words of encouragement:
"F-E-A-R has two meanings:"
'Forget Everything and Run' or
'Face Everything and Rise'

The choice is yours.

Mustard Seed
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   Posted 8/31/2016 6:12 PM (GMT -6)   
Krimpet 🍔 said...
Very interesting discussion.

Mustardseed said: "......I don't feel any worse for wear now." So my question is since you are saying that you haven't been getting any better, are you expecting to feel better now that you've raised your drops that much? I'm wondering if it is something else that your body needs to push more towards wellness. Is there something else that you should be looking into?

I will be interested to hear more about this especially once you have upped your drops with the other herbs.


I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the picture, there always is with this disease. Here's my current "to check out" list:

1.) Systemic yeast/fungal infection (oral thrush despite rubbing Nystatin on my tongue 3 times a day and eating paleo; I would like to get Diflucan at some point).

2.) Thyroid/Adrenal issues (my TSH is very high, and my cortisol and DHEA are low in saliva testing; I've started adrenal cortex and would like to start a natural dessicated thyroid).

3.) Cyst borrelia (I haven't been treated with an antibacterial that hits the cystic form as of yet; my LLMD has said she would like to start me on Flagyl).

4.) Parasitic filarial worms (I find them in my blood smears occasionally, and have never been on a pharmaceutical anti-parasitic; I have started cloves, black walnut, olive leaf, and artemisinin).

As for the upping the herbs, so far I've only upped a select few herbs, and they've only been at the increased amount for a week or so. Improvement is obviosuly a slow process, but the one thing I personally believe at this stage is that I have a better chance of recovery on higher doses than low (I don't believe that works for everyone, but my body's telling me to stopping diddy-daddling with my dosages).

Krimpet 🍔
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   Posted 8/31/2016 6:24 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree. There is almost always other things. So you aren't taking the Nystatin internally...only on your tongue. Candida can also have presentation of mental health issues. And as you already know thyroid issues also can have like presentations. So it is definitely cumulative. I believe as you chip away at some of these things you will get better. But upping the dosages of your herbs may not have an ultimate effect until you get some of the other things under control. We are experiments in progress, unfortunately. Tinkle here, tinkle there....we all hope to get somewhere.
Lyme Moderator

August words of encouragement:
"F-E-A-R has two meanings:"
'Forget Everything and Run' or
'Face Everything and Rise'

The choice is yours.

Georgia Hunter
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   Posted 9/1/2016 4:24 AM (GMT -6)   
Filarial worms are very rare. I'd be more interested in what they are and where/how I got them.

A herx is an immune response and that immune response includes more reactive oxygen species in conjunction with the cytokine cascade. Taking anti-inflammatory medications may help with cellular cytokine release, but it won't effect lipopolysaccharide detection which triggers NO production. This is another "trigger" to our immune response.

Traveler
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   Posted 9/1/2016 12:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Georgia Hunter said...
Filarial worms are very rare. I'd be more interested in what they are and where/how I got them.



" It was recently demonstrated that the lone star tick Amblyomma americanum could harbor filarial nematodes within the genus Acanthocheilonema. In this study, Ixodes scapularis (deer) ticks collected from Southern Connecticut were evaluated for their potential to harbor filarial nematodes. Non-engorged nymphal and adult stage Ixodes scapularis ticks were collected in Southern Connecticut using the standard drag method. In situ hybridization with filarial nematode specific sequences demonstrated the presence of filarial nematodes in Ixodes ticks."

" Our data also demonstrated that infection rate of these filarial nematode in Ixodes ticks is relatively high
(about 22% and 30% in nymphal and adult Ixodes ticks, respectively). In summary, the results from our studies demonstrated that filarial nematode infection was found in Ixodes ticks similar to what has been found in Amblyomma americanum ticks."

file:///C:/Users/Pam/AppData/Local/Temp/vetsci-01-00005.pdf
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)

Mustard Seed
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   Posted 9/1/2016 1:57 PM (GMT -6)   

Girlie
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   Posted 9/1/2016 2:09 PM (GMT -6)   
what is that long thing - is it a worm?

Where are the spirochetes?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14; added biaxin Sept. 26/14 Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.; Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin); Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif; Nov. switched mino to biaxin.

Georgia Hunter
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   Posted 9/1/2016 6:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler said...
Georgia Hunter said...
Filarial worms are very rare. I'd be more interested in what they are and where/how I got them.



" It was recently demonstrated that the lone star tick Amblyomma americanum could harbor filarial nematodes within the genus Acanthocheilonema. In this study, Ixodes scapularis (deer) ticks collected from Southern Connecticut were evaluated for their potential to harbor filarial nematodes. Non-engorged nymphal and adult stage Ixodes scapularis ticks were collected in Southern Connecticut using the standard drag method. In situ hybridization with filarial nematode specific sequences demonstrated the presence of filarial nematodes in Ixodes ticks."

" Our data also demonstrated that infection rate of these filarial nematode in Ixodes ticks is relatively high
(about 22% and 30% in nymphal and adult Ixodes ticks, respectively). In summary, the results from our studies demonstrated that filarial nematode infection was found in Ixodes ticks similar to what has been found in Amblyomma americanum ticks."

file:///C:/Users/Pam/AppData/Local/Temp/vetsci-01-00005.pdf


Thanks MS. Your blood certainly has issues. What protocol has your physician chosen to attack them?

birthdaysuit
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   Posted 9/1/2016 7:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler said...
Just a little disclaimer here:
For many, pushing through a herx can lead them into very dangerous territory, as it can lead to a massive increase in inflammation and set off essentially an anaphylactic type of reaction. So, while some may be able to push through minor to moderate herxing (what I call severe herxing will put a person in the hospital), others may not be so lucky.

Please exercise great caution if you plan on pushing through the herxing - and do everything you can do to help your body detox better instead. Usually getting and keeping inflammation under control will help a lot.


Yes, this is markedly important, herxing/die-off can be far more dangerous than the infection itself.

bluelyme
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   Posted 9/1/2016 7:44 PM (GMT -6)   
Nice pics mustard ..no ketes in there girlie ...you can get alinia and diflucan from adc (online ) and prazi,albendazole ,and ivermectin ..on amazon and ebay...my mom had filiarial in her blood .she is pulsing art but she is having nerve issues ..i think she is just pissing em off...i would get on some iver ...feed store has it too but adjust dosage for your weight ..keep us posted ..we need to start a microscope thread here to show folks..maybe rife ?

Post Edited (bluelyme) : 9/1/2016 7:48:56 PM (GMT-6)


Mustard Seed
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   Posted 9/1/2016 9:47 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie - the spirochetes are much smaller than that worm, which makes them very difficult (impossible, actually) to see with the crude setup I have going: taking pictures through my microscope optics with my cell phone.

GH - My LLMD has had me on a lot of different antibiotics over the past year. Currently on Minocycline, Clarithromycin, and Rifampin. Also taking a zillion herbs and supplements, including Buhner (only for a month or so though).

Girlie
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   Posted 9/1/2016 9:53 PM (GMT -6)   
bluelyme - Alinia is available online? But will they ship to Canada?
Are you talking about a no prescription online pharmacy?
I don't know if I want to do Diflucan unless I know I have Candida...isn't it supposed to be hard on the body?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14; added biaxin Sept. 26/14 Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.; Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin); Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif; Nov. switched mino to biaxin.

Girlie
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   Posted 9/1/2016 9:53 PM (GMT -6)   
So what was that worm?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14; added biaxin Sept. 26/14 Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.; Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin); Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif; Nov. switched mino to biaxin.

Mustard Seed
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   Posted 9/1/2016 9:59 PM (GMT -6)   

bluelyme
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   Posted 9/1/2016 11:27 PM (GMT -6)   
Ya adc has it ..seems like real deal...my llmd told me to it was a little trouble with bank but they shipped that and some rocephin too...the deworming meds are different label but same same ...adc is out of iver ...i can see ketes with my phone rig but its not very visable 1000x then another 4x on dig zoom..waiting for amscope 9mp cam to see what i see....left of center you can see sop..it seems dazed by venom but is very visable when focusing
https://youtu.be/NnkRZQvokMY

Post Edited (bluelyme) : 9/1/2016 11:33:38 PM (GMT-6)


insomniaaa
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Date Joined Apr 2017
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   Posted 1/29/2018 4:28 PM (GMT -6)   
I totally agree. Just because you're herxing doesn't mean you're actually killing off the critters. You're more like pissing them off by ingesting a certain bactericidal substance.

mustard seed said...
Endotoxins are not secreted but are released only when the cells are disrupted

I'm not so sure about that one. I bet these critters have the potential to deliberately excrete endotoxins at will without having to actually die first lol.
And apparently all gram-negative bacteria can excrete endotoxins. Awesome.

Now the question is: what exactly are these endotoxins made of? Is it ammonia ? What else? Does it depend on the actual coinfection excreting the endotoxins?
And how can we most effectively remove these endotoxins from the blood stream as fast as possible? How about using a special dialysis machine for this purpose?

Post Edited (insomniaaa) : 1/29/2018 3:54:22 PM (GMT-7)


goshawk
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   Posted 1/29/2018 4:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi insomniaaa,

This is an older post so the members might not see it and respond, you could start a new post/thread asking your questions.

Take care and I wish you the best of healing, Jo
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