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notquitesoscared13
Regular Member
Joined : Oct 2013
Posts : 428
Posted 1/5/2017 8:45 AM (GMT -7)
Hi All,

It's been a really long time since I've posted, so probably no one remembers me. about three years ago I crashed, and discovered I have probably been carrying Babesia and possibly Lyme for decades. After a very difficult year or so filled with suicidal thoughts and crippling anxiety, I began to recover. This after taking a huge variety of antibiotics, Mepron, herbs and vitamins for many months. Altogether I took abx for about two years, and have been off them for about 1 year. about two months ago I had some bloodwork done by my naturopath, because I was beginning to experience some headaches and mental issues again. Nothing serious, but I didn't want to let it go. She found I was deficient in Iodine, and put me on a very high iodine supplement. Other bloodwork suggested to her that the Babesia was flaring up again, despite the fact that we thought we had kicked it.

For about two weeks now, I've been getting progressively worse. Mostly headaches and mental issues--depression and anxiety. Especially in the mornings, which is typical for me. about a week ago I stopped the iodine, after reading that too much iodine can cause thyroid problems. I'm still getting worse. I've been taking CSA, Teasel and Houttounia (sp) for the past two months, on the advice of my naturopath. I cannot afford to go back to the naturopath at the moment, due to insurance, so I'm looking for some advice. I have a whole bottle of Rifampin in my fridge. Also have a lot of doxycycline. I'm not up on the most current protocols. We KNOW I have/had Babesia--Lyme itself was never proven. Would you all change up the herbal protocol? Stick with the herbs and add an antibotic? If so, which one? Would appreciate any advice you can offer. I'm not sure when I'll be able to afford another visit to the naturopath...
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Denikeef
Veteran Member
Joined : Aug 2015
Posts : 1093
Posted 1/5/2017 9:41 AM (GMT -7)
I am so sorry that it is flaring again, but am glad you are not letting it go. Hopefully others who deal with babesia will be along and can advise you better than I can.

If you are able to read without problems you may want to pick up one of Stephen H. Buhners books on Lyme and babesia. He provides a lot of information that might help you decide what to do. You can be treating on your own till you can afford a visit to your np.

I have been treating myself for almost a year on Buhner's advice. I saw my LLMD for the first time this week and she was very pleased at what I have been doing to treat and had a lot of respect for Buhner.

I wish you complete healing in 2017!
Tested Igenix positive for Lyme March 2016.
Lyme symptoms for possibly 40+ years but severe in the last 5 after traumas to the system.
Currently treating with Buhner's Protocol for Lyme and Bart.
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PeteZa
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2015
Posts : 9729
Posted 1/5/2017 9:48 AM (GMT -7)
Gosh choices are so hard to make with lyme....

My best advice is for you to go with whatever your gut feeling is. And, remember you can always change if it is not working.

I am a herb person. I have lots of issues with antibiotics. They tore up my stomach and intestines no matter what I did as a preventative.

My discovery of Buhner's protocol for me was that the herbs themselves are not intended as bug killers. (I know this is arguable, but hang with me here.) I found Buhner's protocol to be a whole body remodulation process. For example, if your lymph system is sluggish, the herbs will help it get going. If your lymph system is overworking and causing stress, the herbs will calm it down. That is what remodulation is. It is helping the organ or system get to its optimal working point.

Inflammation is the culprit for most of our lyme symptoms. So immediately that has to be addressed. Then there is the cytokine cascade. The collagen in our bodies needs help and so does our immune system. Finally when all of those are working optimally, then you can see if any bugs need killing with anti herbs.

This is just my way of reading Buhner's protocol and how he has explained it to me.

Now I am sure that there are antibiotic users that are just as adamant about their drugs as I am with herbs and I hope that they chime in.

Ultimately it is your decision. Sorry we can't make it for you. I certainly wish someone was with me step by step of the way in my taking the herbs. I did it with 5 books, help from this forum and my intuition.

Good luck..
____________
When life gives you lemons, just add them to water and detox.
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joee
Regular Member
Joined : Dec 2011
Posts : 182
Posted 1/5/2017 10:13 AM (GMT -7)
PeteZa
That was the best explanation of herbs I have ever read!! I honestly thought they were just natural antibiotics and were used for killing only.

I am going to order Buhner's book and begin to pick through it as best as I can with my lyme brain.

I am an antibiotic user, really only because I can not keep a complicated thought in my head long enough to treat myself with herbs so I am using an llmd to direct me. At this point I need someone to tell me do this on this day and this on this day and if this happens do this. But I don't want to be on antibiotics forever, and even my dr tells me there is no cure, just remission and that my body systems need to recover to be able to get to remission. I am relying on his advice to get me there and when my brain is well enough, I will move to burhners protocol to finish up and if I ever relapse that is the route I will go.

So being an antibiotic user, I feel like my body has been through a war. I took antibiotics for 8 months and I am worse now than when I started. I felt miserable everyday for 8 years prior to diagnosis but had times where it calmed down. Months actually then a flare that lasted months on end then calm down again. On the calm times I was still sick but able to go about life. Now 8 months into treatment, I am in one long flare with every body system screaming out.

While my dr was good, I don't feel he went the extra step to check my labs as much as maybe needed to be done. And it was all antibiotics with no other support whatsoever. No talk of detox. Never heard of detox until I came to this forum. My new llmd, is big on detox, diet and supporting the body systems as we go along. Yeah! Hopefully things will improve for me this go around.

So my point about antibiotics is, that you still need to support the body systems. I feel you can't just dump these drugs into your body and expect it will all fix itself. Nope, it can be made worse.

From what I am hearing from you with the herb treatments, the same is true, you need to go about the herbs with support of the body systems being most important aspect, not kill, kill kill which is what I was hearing from my former llmd.

So anyway, thank you for taking the time to explain the herbs. It has really changed my way of thinking about what is happening in my own body while I am on the antibiotics. Time to get his book and do the best I can to learn about how to support myself as I am in treatment with antibiotics.

Thank you!
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Huddie
Veteran Member
Joined : Nov 2014
Posts : 3139
Posted 1/5/2017 10:29 AM (GMT -7)
Notquitesoscared,

I'm sorry you are having a relapse, especially when you were doing so well. The good news is you listened to your intuition and you are treating. The psych. feelings are hard- sorry. Hang in there!

I'm sort of a newbie but Trav should be along soon to guide you with herbs. I know many people heal on them.

Joee,

I'm like you - don't want abx. but feel learning about herbs takes too long when you are low on brain power/concentration skills. I also want to be told "TAKE THIS NEXT" - that is why Trav is here (joking Trav, nah, not really).

It's why I went from a self-sufficient, resourceful woman to asking this bright, experienced, and compassionate group everything.

Hang in there. You will both get better. Sending prayers and hugs.
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Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36317
Posted 1/5/2017 10:32 AM (GMT -7)
We do have to understand that even just increasing the immune function will kill the bacteria, better than any abx or herb. And, Buhner's DOES include 'killing herbs' for each of the bacteria/protozoa that he addresses. But that is not the main goal of his protocols. Killing only should never be the main focus, unless the infection(s) are caught very, very early on. Otherwise we are ignoring the rest of the body and it's inner connectiveness. There is not one part of our body that can "stand alone", without at least support of another part of the body - that's why we all have these different parts!! They are all needed, and even though we can live without some of those 'parts' (lol!), there are "consequences". For example, for me, living without a gall bladder has meant that I have to be sure my liver stays very healthy, as it now has to work overtime because there is no 'back up' for bile to help digest food if my liver can't produce enough at any given time.

The body works as a whole, and we need to remember to help each part that is affected by these bacteria.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)
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PeteZa
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2015
Posts : 9729
Posted 1/5/2017 10:34 AM (GMT -7)
Joee you are so very welcome. When I got lyme Buhner's latest "Second Edition" was not out yet. I could barely read it. I definitely could not keep the information in my brain.

When I finally got the Second Edition Healing Lyme, I still could not read and assimilate the information. I skipped chapters 1-7 and went straight to chapter 8. If you have trouble, just skip and go to chapter 8. That is where you start taking the herbs.

I relied heavily on CD, a moderator on this forum for my Buhner information. She helped me so much in explaining things I could not understand.

I took the herbs according to what and how I thought I should. I probably made mistakes if you ask others. But, low and behold, I made it.....

It is a long journey, but gosh when you get that one day with no symptoms and it turns into weeks and then months, all that work will be worth it.

I was so sick I could not remember 10 minutes after taking my herbs if I had taken them or not. I became a huge note writer.

A journal was so important to me. It helped me to keep track of everything and it kept me going. I never felt like I was improving. But, when I would look back at my journal I would see that the shoulder pain was gone. "When did that happen?" I would say to myself.

Happy to help you anytime.
____________
When life gives you lemons, just add them to water and detox.
profile picture
Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36317
Posted 1/5/2017 10:36 AM (GMT -7)

notquitesoscared13 said...
Hi All,

It's been a really long time since I've posted, so probably no one remembers me. about three years ago I crashed, and discovered I have probably been carrying Babesia and possibly Lyme for decades. After a very difficult year or so filled with suicidal thoughts and crippling anxiety, I began to recover. This after taking a huge variety of antibiotics, Mepron, herbs and vitamins for many months. Altogether I took abx for about two years, and have been off them for about 1 year. about two months ago I had some bloodwork done by my naturopath, because I was beginning to experience some headaches and mental issues again. Nothing serious, but I didn't want to let it go. She found I was deficient in Iodine, and put me on a very high iodine supplement. Other bloodwork suggested to her that the Babesia was flaring up again, despite the fact that we thought we had kicked it.

For about two weeks now, I've been getting progressively worse. Mostly headaches and mental issues--depression and anxiety. Especially in the mornings, which is typical for me. about a week ago I stopped the iodine, after reading that too much iodine can cause thyroid problems. I'm still getting worse. I've been taking CSA, Teasel and Houttounia (sp) for the past two months, on the advice of my naturopath. I cannot afford to go back to the naturopath at the moment, due to insurance, so I'm looking for some advice. I have a whole bottle of Rifampin in my fridge. Also have a lot of doxycycline. I'm not up on the most current protocols. We KNOW I have/had Babesia--Lyme itself was never proven. Would you all change up the herbal protocol? Stick with the herbs and add an antibotic? If so, which one? Would appreciate any advice you can offer. I'm not sure when I'll be able to afford another visit to the naturopath...

Well, I remember you, Notquitesoscared!

I think you are being wise in not ignoring these issues!! Unfortunately, I too know more about the herbs than the abx, so I don't know if Rifampin and Doxy are a good mix or not, for example.

What herbal protocol have you been using? This would help us help you better, I think. But in a general answer, yes, I would change up my herbal protocol to be sure that I was using the most effective herbs to support my body and the most appropriate herbs for the infection(s) that you are dealing with.

And don't forget the support herbs and detoxing - they are just as much a part of our recovery as the 'killing treatments' are.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)
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notquitesoscared13
Regular Member
Joined : Oct 2013
Posts : 428
Posted 1/5/2017 10:42 AM (GMT -7)
Thanks for the replies so far. It's nice just to make a connection with others when you're feeling lousy! All along, without a gap, I have been taking the Cat's Claw and Japanese Knotweed Foundations Formula, on the advice of my naturopath. Also taking probiotics and vitamins/minerals all along. Other than that, I was off the antibiotic herbs and drugs for about 1 year before I began to slide.

Unfortunately, whatever bug that's attacking me the hardest seems to prefer the brain. I've had my share of aches and pains, but the most debilitating symptoms have been brain-related--anxiety, depression, brain fog, processing difficulties, and headaches. Probably mostly due to inflammation? I feel better in the morning when I take charcoal right before bed, which tells me that toxins are building up overnight. So, not sure where to go now. But I do feel I need antibiotics at the moment, whether herbal, drugs, or both. And I'll try to get in the charcoal at night. And detox more during the day. Back to the lemon juice and the Alka Seltzer Gold, I guess. Those seemed to be the most helpful for me before.
Probably sick for more than 20 years. Crashed in Aug. of 2013. Completing 12 months of treatment as of Aug. 2014, and feeling much better! Have taken a wide variety of antibiotics, antiparasitics and herbals for blood-diagnosed Babesia, Erlichia and Anaplasma, and suspected Bart and Lyme.

Bitten by two ticks in March of 2016, which seems to have set off a new infection.
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notquitesoscared13
Regular Member
Joined : Oct 2013
Posts : 428
Posted 1/5/2017 10:47 AM (GMT -7)
Hey Traveler,

I think my response and your post crossed paths. At the moment, in addition to naturopath-prescribed vitamins and minerals (I also don't process B vitamins appropriately), I am taking the Cat's Claw and Japanese Knotweed combo, CSA formula, 2 droppers 3X/Day, Hottounia (sp) 1 dropper, 3X/day, and Teasel, 1 dropper, 2X/day.
Probably sick for more than 20 years. Crashed in Aug. of 2013. Completing 12 months of treatment as of Aug. 2014, and feeling much better! Have taken a wide variety of antibiotics, antiparasitics and herbals for blood-diagnosed Babesia, Erlichia and Anaplasma, and suspected Bart and Lyme.

Bitten by two ticks in March of 2016, which seems to have set off a new infection.
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Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36317
Posted 1/5/2017 10:57 AM (GMT -7)
Have you had the genetic testing for MTHFR gene mutations? It sounds like you might be dealing with one or more. I have determined that I most likely have one that interferes with processing the B vitamins as well (at least) just by my reactions to things and difficulties in detoxing, so I make sure to use the methyl B-12 and methyl folate. This alone has helped me in my detoxing abilities. Food for thought.

As for your 'brain issues' - if you believe it is at least partly due to brain inflammation, then Kudzu root might be helpful. I've been using it at lower doses lately and it's been helping me with those issues. It helps to lower the ammonia in the brain, which will increase brain inflammation, from what I understand.

Personally, I would encourage you to work on your detoxing and maybe on your support herbs/vitamins and such. If this is more of a detox issue, you will notice improvements as you begin to target the detoxing better.

And, I'm so sorry that you too are 'back in the fight' - but know that you are not alone!! We are here to help as much as we can. Hang in there!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)
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PeteZa
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2015
Posts : 9729
Posted 1/5/2017 11:06 AM (GMT -7)
I am not familiar with the Cat's Claw and Japanese Knotweed combo. As for the Houttuynia, I took that for Bart, not Babesia. Your CSA would be for the Babs because it has the Cryptolepis.

How about adding Red Sage and Skullcap for cytokine cascade? Or immune remodulation with some Cordyceps?
____________
When life gives you lemons, just add them to water and detox.
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notquitesoscared13
Regular Member
Joined : Oct 2013
Posts : 428
Posted 1/5/2017 12:10 PM (GMT -7)
I think my naturopath carries Kudzu, Red Sage, Skullcap AND Crypto. I don't want to take/can't really afford all of them, though. Which two do you all think might give me the best bang for my buck? I can pick up a couple of bottles on the way home from work. Ugh! I pretty much expected this to be a lifelong battle, but when I'm on a downturn, I get so weary and discouraged!
Probably sick for more than 20 years. Crashed in Aug. of 2013. Completing 12 months of treatment as of Aug. 2014, and feeling much better! Have taken a wide variety of antibiotics, antiparasitics and herbals for blood-diagnosed Babesia, Erlichia and Anaplasma, and suspected Bart and Lyme.

Bitten by two ticks in March of 2016, which seems to have set off a new infection.
profile picture
notquitesoscared13
Regular Member
Joined : Oct 2013
Posts : 428
Posted 1/5/2017 5:44 PM (GMT -7)
Well all,

I ended up picking up Red Sage and Kudzu on my way home from work. I took two dropperfulls of each along with my other supplements about an hour ago. For the first time today the black cloud is gone. My mental state is so much better! Could these possibly work this fast, or is this just a coincidence or a placebo effect? In any case, I'm enjoying feeling better! Thanks for the suggestions.
Probably sick for more than 20 years. Crashed in Aug. of 2013. Completing 12 months of treatment as of Aug. 2014, and feeling much better! Have taken a wide variety of antibiotics, antiparasitics and herbals for blood-diagnosed Babesia, Erlichia and Anaplasma, and suspected Bart and Lyme.

Bitten by two ticks in March of 2016, which seems to have set off a new infection.
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