Question - on long half-lives of meds - anyone who can do the math?

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Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 12:16 PM (GMT -7)   
Mepron has a half-life of 2-3 days.

So, I'm wondering when you take it - say for 5 days in a row...once you stop - how long before it's out of your system? Since it's building...I would think it would be much longer than the 2-3 days.


Anyone able to do the math?

The reason I'm asking, is I just finished up 5 days of twice daily dosing on Friday and I am feeling terrible today (yesterday was even worse) shivering, head pressure, pain in my left shoulder blade, left arm...area. But, it seems like it's even worse than it's been.

My schedule is two weeks on, and two weeks off. Does it even clear on the 2 weeks off?

I have been on Mepron for about 4 months now...and this seems to be one of my worst herxes - if it is indeed one.

If not, I'm concerned that it is Bartonella flaring...since I stopped treatment to do the Babs meds.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 1:50 PM (GMT -7)   
bump for more views.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2000
   Posted 7/16/2017 1:57 PM (GMT -7)   
If it were linear and not building up, would it be something like this?

(A, B, C etc assumes your dose for the day.)

Day 1 (A) : A
Day 2 (B) : A + B
Day 3 (C) : A + B + C
Day 4 (D) : A + B + C + D
Day 5 (E) : B + C + D + E
Day 6 (no new dose) : C + D + E
Day 7 (no new dose) : D + E
Day 8 (no new dose) : E
Day 9 (no new dose) : --

Are you sure it "builds up"?

PS So sorry to hear about your flare/herx (or whatever). That can be so frustrating. Rooting for you!!! smile
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Very sick now despite being treated for years, still very bad
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 2:39 PM (GMT -7)   
Thanks 1000Daisies. Good way to chart it....thank you!

re: building up. Well, it does - as on Day 5 (in your diagram) there are 4 days in me. That would be 4 doses. (not all full doses though) But - not building up over the duration - you're right. So, on the two weeks off, it is out of my system....for awhile.


It could explain why I'm feeling crappy on Day 7 -

But, it doesn't explain why I am feeling even worse than the previous cycles....on Day 7.

Maybe my detoxing isn't quite clearing out all the toxins...and they are continuing to build???
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

PeteZa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9015
   Posted 7/16/2017 3:28 PM (GMT -7)   
So sorry Girlie. This sound like no fun at all.

I always check for stressful times first. Especially if the meds were fine for a long time. And, we are good at fooling ourselves about stress.

Hope it passes soon. I know you detox a lot, so I don't think that is it.
____________

Good Article

OptimisTick
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2016
Total Posts : 77
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:06 PM (GMT -7)   
Sorry you are feeling so poorly sad

I deal with radioactive half lives. So if I give someone 10mCi of an isotope that has a 6 HR half life, every 6 hrs it is reduced by half.
10÷2=5 (6 hr)
5÷2=2.5 (12 hr)
2.5÷2=1.25 (18 hr)
1.25÷2=0.625 (24 hr)
0.625÷2=0.3125 (30 hr)
0.3125÷2=0.15625 (36 hr)
0.15625÷2=0.078125 (42 hr)

And the way it is biodistributed through the organs, after 24 hrs we would essentially consider this dose gone.

So no, the Mepron is not out of your system in 2 weeks. To be completely out of your system would be about 22 days (I calculated a 2 day half life and 1500mg daily dosage) I've never taken this, so not sure about the metabolism/biodistribution, so it could take longer or short amount of time to clear the system.

Hope this helps and you feel better soon smile
Bit in the 80's with bullseye rash
Diagnosed Nov 2015
IGeneX:
- IgM (IND): **31 +, **39 IND, **41+++
- IgG (Neg): **31 IND, **39 IND, **41+, 58+
- CD57 = 31

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2000
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:12 PM (GMT -7)   
Ok - I messed that up. I misread it as "gone in 2-3 days" and missed the "half-life" part of 2-3 days. If you are talking half-life...

Here is my attempt at a re-calculation (assuming 3 days for half life).

Day 1 (A) : A(100%)
Day 2 (B) : A(100->50%) + B(100%)
Day 3 (C) : A(100->50%) + B(100->50%) + C(100%)
Day 4 (D) : A(50%) + B(100->50%) + C(100->50%) + D(100%)
Day 5 (E) : A(50->25%) + B(50%) + C(100->50%) + D(100->50%) + E(100%)
Day 6 (no new dose) : A(50->25%) + B(50->25%) + C(50%) + D(100->50%) + E(100->50%)
Day 7 (no new dose) : A(25%) + B(50->25%) + C(50->25%) + D(50%) + E(100->50%)
Day 8 (no new dose) : A(25->12.5%) + B(25%) + C(50->25%) + D(50->25%) + E(50%)
Day 9 (no new dose) : A(25->12.5%) + B(25->12.5%) + C(25%) + D(50->25%) + E(50->25%)
Day 10 (no new dose) : A(12.5%) + B(25->12.5%) + C(25->12.5%) + D(50->25%) + E(50->25%)
...
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Very sick now despite being treated for years, still very bad
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2000
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:16 PM (GMT -7)   
OptimisTick said...
Sorry you are feeling so poorly sad

I deal with radioactive half lives. So if I give someone 10mCi of an isotope that has a 6 HR half life, every 6 hrs it is reduced by half.
10÷2=5 (6 hr)
5÷2=2.5 (12 hr)
2.5÷2=1.25 (18 hr)
1.25÷2=0.625 (24 hr)
0.625÷2=0.3125 (30 hr)
0.3125÷2=0.15625 (36 hr)
0.15625÷2=0.078125 (42 hr)

And the way it is biodistributed through the organs, after 24 hrs we would essentially consider this dose gone.

So no, the Mepron is not out of your system in 2 weeks. To be completely out of your system would be about 22 days (I calculated a 2 day half life and 1500mg daily dosage) I've never taken this, so not sure about the metabolism/biodistribution, so it could take longer or short amount of time to clear the system.

Hope this helps and you feel better soon smile


Super cool response. I have a question for you. What is considered "gone"? Because... you can keep dividing by two to just minuscule amounts. Do you ever truly get rid of it? What is so minuscule that it's considered so small to be relevantly measurable?

Specifically...
1/2=0.5
0.5/2=0.25
0.25/2=0.125
0.125/2=0.0625
0.0625/2=0.03125
0.03125/2=0.015625
etc
You never reach 0....

Hope my question makes sense.
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Very sick now despite being treated for years, still very bad
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

bluelyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4403
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:38 PM (GMT -7)   
Mepron destroys mitochondria too ...it wrecked my dads babs but wrecked him too....did artminsin ever hit you like this? Feel better soon girlie can u do iv glutithione?

OptimisTick
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2016
Total Posts : 77
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:51 PM (GMT -7)   
I can't speak for other meds, but for isotopes, you do eventually get rid of it (you'll excrete the majority of it.) Generally, most isotopes in the uCi range is considered a miniscule amount and virtually gone. That's about the 24-30 hr mark......but technically, you'll never reach zero as everything emits some type of radiation.

You did a nice detailed re-calculation smile
Bit in the 80's with bullseye rash
Diagnosed Nov 2015
IGeneX:
- IgM (IND): **31 +, **39 IND, **41+++
- IgG (Neg): **31 IND, **39 IND, **41+, 58+
- CD57 = 31

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:54 PM (GMT -7)   
Thanks Daisies and OptimisTick

so 22 days - so quite possible that two days after 5 days dosing twice daily I still have some die-off symptoms happening....and even possibly right up to the next cycle starting two weeks later.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 6:57 PM (GMT -7)   
bluelyme said...
Mepron destroys mitochondria too ...it wrecked my dads babs but wrecked him too....did artminsin ever hit you like this? Feel better soon girlie can u do iv glutithione?


blue - did your dad not recover? How long was he on the Mepron?

I have never had fatigue until I started the Mepron. It's not been one of my symptoms...but it is now.
Maybe it's killing my red blood cells and my Ferritin is dropping.

Artemisinin hit me hard,but not quite as bad - the pulses were 4 days on and 11 off .


No, I don't think I can do IV glutathione. Maybe I should check around and see if the ND's here in my small city offer it.

Would once every cycle work? (maybe in the middle of my 5 days of dosing)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 7/16/2017 8:15:42 PM (GMT-6)


Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 7:15 PM (GMT -7)   
PeteZa said...
So sorry Girlie. This sound like no fun at all.

I always check for stressful times first. Especially if the meds were fine for a long time. And, we are good at fooling ourselves about stress.

Hope it passes soon. I know you detox a lot, so I don't think that is it.


I can't say they were fine...I have had some bad days on the Mepron...but this was one of my worst...and considering it's been a few months...it surprised me.

I was away for a few days - so did detox less...but this isn't the first time that's happened while on Mepron. We've done the same trip a few times now....so not sure what the heck is going on...

Time will tell...I'm on my two week off period now...so if it does get better...then I know it's the die-off.
If it doesn't...then maybe it's bart rearing it's ugly head.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

bluelyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4403
   Posted 7/16/2017 7:33 PM (GMT -7)   
He always had fatigue but 5 months on mepron almost put him bedbound ...he just starting to recover ..take coq10 and iron rich foods ..iv glutithione usually helps liver emmensly ..

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27379
   Posted 7/16/2017 8:17 PM (GMT -7)   
bluelyme said...
He always had fatigue but 5 months on mepron almost put him bedbound ...he just starting to recover ..take coq10 and iron rich foods ..iv glutithione usually helps liver emmensly ..


Can't take coq10 while on Mepron - maybe my 2nd off week I can take some.

My liver is fine - just had blood work done and the enzymes are looking good - not like when I was treating Lyme before Bart treatment.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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