Herxing theories

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Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/13/2017 11:52 AM (GMT -7)   
So I've read that herxing means the meds/herbals are working and we should detox more or take a few days off and then continue.

I've also read that healing does not mean herxing and hurting.

Based on personal experiences, what do people think?

When I am herxing bad, I feel like a couple weeks later I am better than before the herx. A 2 steps back, 3 steps forward sort of pattern.

Thoughts?
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/13/2017 12:02 PM (GMT -7)   
I think it varies from person to person.


I have always had daily flares with certain symptoms...and herxing isn't always easy to distinguish from those.

Some herxes...easy to tell...but I don't get an improvement after they subside.

You don't need to have bad herxing in order to get well...but many (most?) do end up with a few of those bad ones...or more.

That's great that you have that pattern, Kat!!

It is good to up the detox when you herx...and if necessary even back off on the treatment. (abx/herbs)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 773
   Posted 9/13/2017 12:02 PM (GMT -7)   
I'm aligned with your thinking. Especially given your personal experience I'd say in your case the herxing is part of the healing process. You just never want the herx to go to redzone level or spiral out of control into a tsunami of endless continuous herxing. If you feel you make progress after herxes then that is a very good sign.

It may be a bit different case by case, depending on individual genetics (especially immune system genetics) and particular pathogen stew of the patients. Some people don't really herx. Others, like me, herx like heck. If I'm not careful they can get out of control and can be harmful (ie burn me out, make me feel like I'm going insane, spiral into continuous blackhole death herx). That's why I have to find ways to pace myself with treatments and always detox as best as I can. For my situation I think some level of herxing is inevitable, this whole process is like chipping away at a mountain but I eventually see gradual improvements after effective meds that make me herx. But it is a long process.

But also maybe both points are right. I do think going after the pathogens is important component, but you can also promote healing by therapies that boost immune system, try to tackle other angles other than the pathogens like metals, stress, adrenals, etc. So not all healing has to involve herxing. But for many of us I think herxing is part of the program, you just have to find ways to make it manageable.

So much of this is trial and error. I think you've figured out how things work for your situation and that is huge! There is still a lot we don't know about the exact mechanics of herxing (from what I've heard). Would be nice to have some more research on that to really get the nuts and bolts on the biochem, we basically have to go off anecdotal experiences and figure out patterns and strategies from that information. I think it is likely a combo of toxin release from pathogens getting nailed, body systems trying to process this toxin overload, and immune system getting riled up picking up all that pathogen debris and sending the system into high alert. That's my general intuition and understanding of this phenomenon.

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/13/2017 12:15 PM (GMT -7)   
I thought I was figuring it out, but my feet hurt so bad this morning I could barely walk! We have the dog an extra walk last night because he was having puppy tantrums, and I may have overdone it, but my feet haven't hurt that bad in a long time! It's my 2nd or 3rd week on the rifampin/doxy, and I now on doxy, tini I did have some hurting and fatigue also, and then I got better. So I'm hoping....

But I am really confused over whether it's a good thing or whether I should take a longer break. I've been pulsing m-w-f and taking weekends off except for herbals all 7 days. Maybe I should pulse those too? Something to think about.

I wish I could remember where I read about herxing does/does not mean healing! Probably time to pick up the books again.

You guys are right though, I need more detox for sure. I have to make the time somehow.
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/13/2017 12:22 PM (GMT -7)   
I wouldn't pulse the herbs...just lower the doses maybe.

It can take a few days (or longer) after stopping the antibiotics for the symptoms to alleviate.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 773
   Posted 9/13/2017 12:30 PM (GMT -7)   
I think Girlie's advice is solid. You are getting after these pathogens with all the antimicrobials. Good idea if you can integrate more detox methods to see if that can help. Maybe bumping down the herbal dosing is a good idea, at least temporarily, just to see if you can let your body catch up a bit from the herxing (we are presuming herx, which I think is a pretty safe presumption!).

It's hard finding the right pacing and sometimes things imperceptibly shift from manageable to unmanageable herx levels, plus given the pulse schedule you might have certain days where you herx more because you are getting a stronger antimicrobial challenge those days. When the herxing becomes too much always good to try and up detox and either take break from meds or shift dosing down. Like Girlie says it can take a few days for symptoms to calm down.

Good luck!!! I'm sure you will find the right balance, it takes some trial and error though!!!

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 9/13/2017 12:43 PM (GMT -7)   
What it comes down to is that herxing is a good sign because it means it's working, but it's also damaging to the body. So you want to minimize it. Take smaller doses if you have to. Or push through it if you want. Just know that herxing is inflammation and inflammation is damage. Maybe it'll all heal and it doesn't matter. Some would rather rush it. But ideally, we can minimize risk by minimizing exposure to it

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/13/2017 1:01 PM (GMT -7)   
I'm definitely getting more inflammation and fatigue. Even my forearms are hurting which makes no sense to me. I'll try just taking one dose of the antibiox 3x a week instead of the 2x a day and see if that helps.

If herxing is damage, I don't want that!
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1017
   Posted 9/13/2017 1:11 PM (GMT -7)   
I personally don't recommend that. Ideally, unless youre intentionally pulsing, you want a constant stream of antibiotic in your system other wise you might end up treading water or worse leaving opportunities for pathogen adaptation. Better to lower the dose than lower the frequency. This is one of my many reasons i prefer herbs over abx. I can cut the dose into as tiny of a piece as i want. If you're making progress after every herx it might not be a big deal though. Sounds like your body is able to heal it. Just don't overwhelm yourself. As long as you feel it's helping i think that's the most important thing

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/13/2017 1:15 PM (GMT -7)   
The LLMD has me pulsing 3 days a week. I can stick it out another week and see if there's improvement. I have not had time for the baths lately. Only 1 in the last week. I had good intentions last night, but life took over and had to be up too early.

Now that I'm pretty sure it's a herx, I'll be more watchful. I'd rather take a week or two off and start again if that's what my body needs. One more morning like today and I'll definitely be taking a break.

The LLMD said to stop the houttinya while taking rifampin. I'm still taking samento. I ordered banderol too on my own, but now I think I'll wait to add anything else. Barely staying afloat now!
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/13/2017 6:46 PM (GMT -7)   
Psilociraptor said...
I personally don't recommend that. Ideally, unless youre intentionally pulsing, you want a constant stream of antibiotic in your system other wise you might end up treading water or worse leaving opportunities for pathogen adaptation. Better to lower the dose than lower the frequency. This is one of my many reasons i prefer herbs over abx. I can cut the dose into as tiny of a piece as i want. If you're making progress after every herx it might not be a big deal though. Sounds like your body is able to heal it. Just don't overwhelm yourself. As long as you feel it's helping i think that's the most important thing


Pulsing is an accepted, tried and true way to treat lyme and co's.

One of the best and very experienced Lyme Docs only pulses...and gets good results.
But, he does prescribe full doses of the abx.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 6:45 AM (GMT -7)   
I'm happy to say that after an epsom soak last night and a reasonable amount of sleep, spattered by strange awakenings which I think is from the LDN, my feet were tolerable this morning and fatigue is greatly improved!

My LLMD follows Horowitz and Buhner. The other thing I like about him is that he isn't pushy and he believes we need to work together as a team, so he listens when I say "I have kids and a full-time job, and I need to be able to function."

I'm sure he would tell me I'm not detoxing enough, and to back off of everything and let my body rest if I'm herxing too bad. My problem is since I know some people have been on disability, not able to get out of bed, etc, I feel like as long as I can keep moving and get through my day I'm not herxing too bad. Maybe that's the wrong attitude?!

I decided to start adding in banderol increasing a drop a day. I haven't discussed with LLMD, but my goal is to get back to herbs only.
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 773
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:00 AM (GMT -7)   
So happy to hear that Kat1000! well it is a lot of trial and error, finding what you can handle, what detox works and helps in your case. Some people don't herx as much, others it is brutal. We just have to find our pacing and whatever methods can help us manage the treatments. And I'm so happy to hear that you have such a great relationship and partnership with your doctor, that is ideal!!!

I think your attitude is right on (at least it mirrors my own). I feel herxing in my case is inevitable, I just have to make sure it doesn't get to the point where it launches me to outerspace. So long as I can keep it relatively corralled I'm cool.

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:36 AM (GMT -7)   
sebreg - I like the image of keeping it corralled! The last week has been rough, with yesterday being the climax in inflammation and fatigue. It really made me think if it was a herx, I was doing something wrong. I think what I learned is, if I'm feeling that bad, my body needs more detox, and if that doesn't work, I need a break from treatment.

I'm not pain free today, but yesterday I had to hop to the bathroom because the pain in one foot was so severe. That foot is still sore today, but it's so mild compared to yesterday. I applied the Four Thieves again last night too, and I don't know what part of my actions last night helped but today feels so much better!
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

WalkingbyFaith
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:58 AM (GMT -7)   
Kat,
Thanks for starting this thread. Everyone's responses on this are so good.

It's great that you notice improvements after a herx - 2 back and 3 forward. I know when I've gotten better or busy and skimped on the epsom baths, it def caught up with me. The fact that you're wondering if you're herxing too much means you probably are. You'll just have to decide what action to take.

Inflammation is inflammation like others said, and it calls on the immune system's attention, which means its attention is then distracted to some extent from killing pathogens, IMO.

Sebreg's first response on this thread is sooo thorough and reflects my thoughts precisely.

I've often wrestled with understanding what is really happening in the body and wish there was more scientific facts known instead of a bunch of theories.

From what I sense of people's comments about what they call herxing, it's really just a worsening of some or all of their symptoms. I personally believe that can be caused by 3 separate things or any combination of these:

1) bacteria or other pathogens dying and releasing endotoxins
2) cytokines released by the immune system, whether that immune response is normal and healthy or whether it's abnormal and out of control
3) other toxins in the body such as mycotoxins, heavy metals, accumulated environmental toxins, etc, that are somehow affected by the treatment or by the immune system's response to the treatment

Personally, I sometimes believe I can tell which type it is by how it feels. My herxes tend to last longer than most, usually 1-2 weeks. The longest was 2 months. I never know how something will affect me, so I've learned to start low and go slow. Sometimes I herx right away, sometimes a week or more later.

I think it's because I went undiagnosed for years and likely have a stew of pathogens and environmental toxins. I also have a genetic predisposition to biotoxins. I'm sure it will take me a few years to get mine all unraveled.

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 10:16 AM (GMT -7)   
Walking by Faith - your 3 scenarios make sense to me. It would be helpful to know the actual cause so we could zero in on healing faster, but when I think about how many things in life are based on speculation, I shouldn't feel so frustrated and, thought I hate to admit it, sometimes hopeless.

Yesterday I was frustrated at how awful I felt after treating for so many months, which I know is a fraction of the time others have treated, and I know I wasn't my best with some things at work. Yes, they were frustrating, but on a good day I would have handled them better.

So today I feel better physically, but emotionally I'm still drained. Dealing with it mostly alone, except for this wonderful forum, doesn't help either. I'm so grateful to have found this site!
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

mpost
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Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1145
   Posted 9/14/2017 11:34 AM (GMT -7)   
i don't believe that herxing is what we believe it's now. besides the first week when you start IV antibiotics or something like mino, and gives you something that will send you to the ER. now THAT is herxing. When on mino 300mg a day, i called the ambulance at some point i thought i will die, i had 130 pulse and felt im going to suffocate, my head was pounding, half of face going numb and severe photofobia...

the night before i had psychological reactions, started crying uncontrollably (i am NOT the crying type, i did not cry or even close even when i found out i have lyme, so i had no reason to cry when i was going better during treatment!), nevertheless i was crying

that is herxing!

What we experience later i do not believe are herxes, they are some sort of autoimmune reactions started by the bacteria when it sheds coating. when lyme bacteria turns from a worm form to a spherical form it changes antigen, meaning some of the proteins in its coat change, probably the old coat gets thrown away, the immune system goes nuts after these and provokes an immune response. It's not only me who thinks this is true

lymemd.blogspot.com/2017/08/autoimmune-encephalitis-and-lyme.html

and i saw other famous LLMD, either Dr. H or P, saying the same thing.

If you think about it, how many bacteria can u really have inside you, how much herxing can u really do. There are people here on forum that are herxing "for years". That is NOT possible.

Post Edited (mpost) : 9/15/2017 10:10:09 AM (GMT-6)


1000Daisies
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Date Joined Apr 2016
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   Posted 9/14/2017 12:30 PM (GMT -7)   
I didn't read all the responses yet, but I'd say that "herx" is often used interchangeably for "herx" and for "flares". I know I've made that mistake in the past personally.

I have only been able to identify a few true herx for us that were related to treatment. Honestly, I have kids who are ALL OVER THE BOARD with symptoms that it's very difficult to correlate.
I'd say that they "flare" more than they "herx".

We rarely see improvement after a flare or herx.

EXCEPT for Kid#2. He appears to be very reactive to some things. For the antiviral supplements, he will definitely herx when he first starts them or when I increase dosage, and then he's MUCH MUCH MUCH better in symptoms when he's been on the supplements for a few days. It's very identifiable and repeatedable (is that a word? LOL).

Many times he will initially react to a new herbals, but it certainly doesn't mean it will be better for him in regards to symptoms. : | (Our naturopath suspects it's more of a chemical reaction than a true improvement from herbals, but the jury is still out for me on this for him.)

Also, I've had herbals cause major flare-ups of symptoms I did NOT even have previously/currently. In some cases, I'd stop the herbals and would take months for symptoms to resolve. In other cases, I continue on the herbals and again takes months for symptoms to resolve (if they even do). I definitely feel these are flare-ups and not necessarily herxs (although I'd suspect many others would call them herxs).

I guess I'm really no help on this one! smile
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Very sick now despite being treated for years, still very bad
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

mpost
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Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1145
   Posted 9/14/2017 1:04 PM (GMT -7)   
yes 1000Daisies is correct, so after a REAL herx, you feel MUCH MUCH better than before. and u feel as if u stepped out of some sort of dungeon of hell. people that come to this forum and chat all day about how they are herxing, with all respect, when i was herxing i was not able to read anything or i was worrying for my life, very little time to pay my respects to healingwell friends... now that's a herx.

dr neil spector talks about his first Ceftriaxone dose for lyme, i pinned the video exactly when he starts talking about it (took me 15 mins to find it, you owe me one gluten free beer ;) )
/youtu.be/MVmPAK-4Kfs?t=1903

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
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   Posted 9/14/2017 1:39 PM (GMT -7)   
Yeah Mpost you bring up good points. There really are only so many pathogens in the body, so it could be that the immune system is picking up a bit of pathogen debris due to therapeutic challenge and then gets sent into some massive red alert overdrive. Almost like a glitch in the immune system, but while I think immune system genetics plays a role I bet pathogens might also be skewing the immune system response as well, amplifying certain things and undercutting other aspects.

The thing is, my guess is that herxing is not a monolithic entity, I think it is likely a multitude of things with high variation based on particular pathogens and immune system make-ups. Some people have major issues with the detox pathways as well, so this exacerbates the situation or backs up the clog creating amplified herx responses even if not much pathogen is being derailed.

All I know is I've never been able to get around what I consider herxheimer responses. Effective meds bring out this response and it is slow and grinding but it is after those therapeutics that drive those responses that I eventually see improvements in my symptoms. I think it is because of my immune system and the particular pathogens I'm dealing with, coupled with genetics that may present issues in how my body detoxes. Also, no one can say the exact concentration of pathogen that resides in my system, I'm dealing with some form of bartonella/BLO and it is super responsive to therapeutic challenges. It could very well be there is a high pathogen load and that it affects the whole vascular system plus various other organs and tissues. The vascular system encompasses a hell of a lot of surface area so there is plenty of room for large amounts of pathogen colonization I think. I also think that the length and severity of my illness also plays a role in these treatment challenges and herxes.

Plus, as I've gotten further into treatment these herx responses have become less and less of an issue, I'm guessing this is due to the fact that there is less and less pathogen load. Earlier on in my treatment journey I could barely manage one small dose of monotherapy, I can manage much more aggressive therapeutic combinations now. This leads me to believe that the pathogen response to medication was the driving force behind my "herx" responses, whether they turbocharged immune storms or die off or whatever (I think it was combos of these things). As the pathogens get whacked over time they produce less and less "herx" response for me, probably because there is less pathogen there to respond the potential for severe herxing gets diminished.

Unfortunately no one can say exactly for sure. There just doesn't seem to be enough hard evidence or science on this phenomenon, and whenever there will be I think it is going to show us that there is high variance and multiple reasons for how and why this phenomenon presents, and presents differently on a case by case basis.

Btw Mpost thanks for that link to the LymeMD post. That is interesting how he parses things. I'm going to keep reading up on that, he might be on to something.

Post Edited (sebreg) : 9/14/2017 3:26:15 PM (GMT-6)


insomniaaa
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2017
Total Posts : 22
   Posted 9/14/2017 2:26 PM (GMT -7)   
Everyone has a different definition of a herx.

There might be a misconception about bacteria releasing endotoxins because they are dying. My theory: The bacteria are alive and well. They're not dying at all. They might be weakened a little bit by the herb but that's it.
They feel too cozy inside my brain, joints and guts.

The toxins are really bad though. Kinda feels like being poisoned. I feel like they're punishing me for using the wrong herb.

I do have to add I never herxed on antibiotics. It's always the herbs.

Please be careful when combining herbs with antibiotics. A normal herx without antibiotics is awful enough. When adding in a too strong of an antibiotic you can push your body over the edge and literally die because your body just can't cope with all those toxins. In that case all the detox in the world won't save your life.

Just do it slowly and stick with either herbs or antibiotics.

OK you can combine rocephine / minocycline with artemisia annua as a cyst buster if you want but I don't recommend combining rocephine with cat's claw for instance.
It's tricky to find the right combo.

Post Edited (Insomniaa) : 9/15/2017 2:45:12 AM (GMT-6)


Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/14/2017 2:50 PM (GMT -7)   
I don't think it's a misconception that herxes are from the die-off of bacteria and the endotoxins this creates.




The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is a systemic illness first noted in association with antibiotic therapy for neurosyphilis. This reaction has been noted to occur in seventy five percent of secondary syphilis patients undergoing penicillin treatment. It has also been observed after initiation of effective treatment with other diseases, namely Lyme disease, Whipple's disease and relapsing fever. It is a transient reaction characterized by fever, headache, malaise and myalgia. Patients could experience a worsening of symptoms. The aetiology is still unknown, but the reaction may result from toxic products of dead or dying treponemes reacting with sensitized syphilitic tissues.


www.e-mjm.org/2003/v58n3/Ocular_Syphilis.pdf



painfatiguelyme.com/JHPCN.pdf

jemsekspecialty.com/herxheimer-reaction/
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

insomniaaa
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2017
Total Posts : 22
   Posted 9/15/2017 1:33 AM (GMT -7)   
Maybe in other people the bacteria react differently to the herbs and actually die as soon as they get in contact with certain herbs
but in my case I don't think the bacteria are dying at all. This presumed instant necrosis of the bacteria might be a slower process than we initially thought.
I agree they are indeed releasing huge amounts of toxins though in a very short amount of time. In my case they are punishing me for using the "wrong" herbs or rather the right ones.

It's weird that I never had a herx from an antibiotic even though I underwent quite a few antibiotic therapies recently.
It's always certain herbs causing the bacteria to release these overwhelming amounts of toxins that no binder or detox method seems to help with in my case.

Most recently it was cat's claw that gave me the herx even though I tolerated cat's claw just fine a few months ago. Maybe I increased the dosage too fast.

Post Edited (Insomniaa) : 9/15/2017 2:42:20 AM (GMT-6)


Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/15/2017 1:44 AM (GMT -7)   
mpost said...
yes 1000Daisies is correct, so after a REAL herx, you feel MUCH MUCH better than before. and u feel as if u stepped out of some sort of dungeon of hell. people that come to this forum and chat all day about how they are herxing, with all respect, when i was herxing i was not able to read anything or i was worrying for my life, very little time to pay my respects to healingwell friends... now that's a herx.

dr neil spector talks about his first Ceftriaxone dose for lyme, i pinned the video exactly when he starts talking about it (took me 15 mins to find it, you owe me one gluten free beer ;) )
/youtu.be/MVmPAK-4Kfs?t=1903


When my herx subsides, I don't feel much much better than before the herx. Of course I feel better than I was while herxing though.

My symptoms are slowly dropping off one by one and no improvement happens immediately after a herx.

Herxing symptoms can be lessened with effective detoxing.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Kat1000
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/15/2017 6:27 AM (GMT -7)   
All of the responses are really interesting.

Today I was worse off than yesterday, but not as bad as day before yesterday. So this time, 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

Whenever the LLMD adds an herb, he always has me start very slow. Usually it's a drop a day increase, or at most it might be adding 5 drops a week.

Red root I added on my own to help boost lymphatic system. I can't seem to get past 10 drops with that one.

Since I'm never quite sure where the herx/symptoms are coming from, I try to detox more when they start and when my schedule permits.

I bought the lemon essential oil that I can bring to work and add to my water, so I have the lemon water going almost all the time.

Last night I fell asleep reading my book in bed at 8:30, and my tween turned out my light for me! I met with my oil rep yesterday and started using a diffuser with water and lavender. I guess it worked!

Still, had bad foot pain again, but not as bad as 2 days ago. I did have to walk the pup more yesterday, so that may be the problem. That's the other factor that plays a part, I think, is exercise. Apparently even walking is too much for the bart right now.
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps
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