Magnesium bad for Lyme??

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WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 9/13/2017 7:22 PM (GMT -7)   
I've been taking Natural Calm magnesium citrate for IBS with constipation since before I knew I had Lyme.

In Dr Rawls' book, Unlocking Lyme, on page 206, he says to avoid magnesium products for constipation because regular use of magnesium can make Lyme symptoms worse.

How?? Does anyone know what he's basing this on? I didn't see any references in the back of the book on this.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/13/2017 7:33 PM (GMT -7)   
I don't know what he's basing that on.

I know there has been some Docs who say that Lyme feeds on magnesium.

But, even if it does...we still need to supplement - we can't be deficient in that mineral.

I have not heard of anyone getting worse with magnesium supplementation.

I know several LLMD's who do prescribe it for their patients.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 773
   Posted 9/13/2017 7:36 PM (GMT -7)   
Magnesium has always seemed to help me. It usually seems to help out a lot of other patients too as lyme and some of these other infections seem to deplete the body of it. Maybe his assumption is that lyme feeds/depletes magnesium therefore you want to avoid it. I don't believe that taking magnesium supplementation turbocharges the pathogens though, and either way your body needs that element, most especially if it is being hijacked by these organisms. Most well-respected LLMDs highly recommend magnesium for their patients, it is quite standard. Not to say that standard is always right, but based off the anecdotal information I've come across it seems to usually be a very good supplement for lyme patients.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
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   Posted 9/13/2017 8:18 PM (GMT -7)   
Does Dr. Rawls really say this? If so he lost some credibility points.

Magnesium helps with digestion, relaxation/sleep, and muscle twitching. All areas that lyme often creates problems with. So I don't get how it can make lyme symptoms worse.

Also, as Girlie mentions even if lyme and co "Feed" off certain minerals or amino acids, you have to replenish the body with it, because YOU need it too. The point is to consume enough so the bacteria can get there's but so do you. The bacteria will get there's whether you supplement or not.
Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41
Ehrlichia (Igenex)
Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

ABX Treatment: 03/2016-04/2016; 7/2017-9/2017
Buhner Protocol for Lyme and Mycoplasma: May 2016 - Dec. 2016; 8/2017 - Present

10LymeB
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 549
   Posted 9/13/2017 10:19 PM (GMT -7)   
My LLMD has me on magnesium and I take a little extra when I'm feeling twitchy.
*42 yo - Treatment started Nov. 2016 - Bitten by mosquito in Paris 2013
* SIBO (improved with diet)
* Candida (improved with diet and Nystatin)
* Lyme - Babesia - Bartonella
* Hashimoto's (improved with NatureThroid)
* EBV
* HHV6
* Tinea Versicolor (improved with Sporanox)
* IBS (improved with diet and BPC 157)
* Mostly herbal treatment, Bryon White

ChickenArise
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Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 1227
   Posted 9/13/2017 11:11 PM (GMT -7)   
Magnesium has been the key unlocking 25 plus years of chronic pain and inflammation for me. I began working up bowel tolerance on August 10th.

I am up to 3000 mg per day internally plus an amount that I cant even begin to quantify of external trans dermal use in the past week stacked on top.

I havent taken any antibiotics in a little over the same period.

I have never felt better even with the problems which remain.

Dr. Klinghardt who I hold in high regard warns about internal magnesium. So add yet another reason I label what I am doing as a modified Klinghardt Protocol.

If internal magnesium is this bad for you, expect my deterioration to happen hard and fast. Would that prove causation? Not necessarily so.

Either way, you all deserve to know, and I wont let my ego get in the way of disclosure.

Fingers crossed as I will continue mega dosing Magnesium until you pry it from my cold dead hands.
AUG14:Mold Sick.FALL16:Clinical Bart/Borellia/Yeast
NOV16:Lung Pain. JAN17:Morg Scalp (resolved)
FEB17: Pupils, throat glow UV light.
Rx: Abx Break, Probiotic Rebuild, FLZ q72hr
Sup: Ozone, Magnets, Dental implants removed
Proto:Modified Klinghardt
Tx: self

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 9/14/2017 12:37:22 AM (GMT-6)


mpost
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Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1145
   Posted 9/14/2017 12:14 AM (GMT -7)   
it's the first time i hear magnesium is bad for lyme. any disease that has heart and neurologic involvement with muscular degeneration and inflammation would benefit from magnesium supplementation. and i have not mentioned the sleep issues all lyme people have ... so i really think your doctor got it wrong.

and how about epsom salt baths ? for the very sick i think that is among the only things that really works and makes them feel a bit better.... Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate...

No seriously ...

Georgia Hunter
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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1995
   Posted 9/14/2017 1:19 AM (GMT -7)   
Borrelia utilizes manganese like regular bacteria utilize iron. It is essential to their growth and replication. As for magnesium, chronic infection causes an increase in quinolinic acid levels around the cells and alters the feed-back self metabolism of spermine back to spermidine. This decreases intracellular transport of polyvalent cations like magnesium and leads to its depletion over time. A reduction of magnesium alters hundreds of reactions in the body as it is the main substrate or catalyst for these reactions.

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 9/14/2017 5:26 AM (GMT -7)   
ChickenArise said...
Dr. Klinghardt who I hold in high regard warns about internal magnesium. So add yet another reason I label what I am doing as a modified Klinghardt Protocol.


Do you know why Klinghardt says this?

It may be where Rawls got that from.

Octobrsky13
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 9/14/2017 6:18 AM (GMT -7)   
Magnesium makes my symptoms much worse. I've tried it multiple times in various forms and had the same reaction every time. I tried taking Natural Calm several times for sleep issues when I was in remission and felt activity in my brain - tingling, skin crawling, pulsating - so I stopped it. I hadn't had those sensations for several years before I took magnesium.

When I relapsed a year and a half ago two LLMD's recommended it for cardiac issues I was having. I took just 100 mg. and it worsened my cardiac issues to the degree I thought my chest would explode. My other symptoms worsened also.

I know that most who take it say it helps them but I also know it isn't the case for everyone. I don't agree with everything Dr. Rawls says in his book but he isn't the only LLMD to warn about magnesium so there must be a reason for that. I don't really know why I have the reaction to it that I do while others can take it with no issues but I am sensitive to a lot of things.

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 6:53 AM (GMT -7)   
I don't remember that from Rawls book but may have missed it. I've been taking magnesium even before I knew about the lyme. My LLMD promotes magnesium 1000mg a day. He also will give me an IV of a high dose at appointments if my inflammation has been real bad, and it does help.

Maybe it depends on particular symptoms?
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 773
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:05 AM (GMT -7)   
Octobrsky13 said...
Magnesium makes my symptoms much worse. I've tried it multiple times in various forms and had the same reaction every time. I tried taking Natural Calm several times for sleep issues when I was in remission and felt activity in my brain - tingling, skin crawling, pulsating - so I stopped it. I hadn't had those sensations for several years before I took magnesium.

When I relapsed a year and a half ago two LLMD's recommended it for cardiac issues I was having. I took just 100 mg. and it worsened my cardiac issues to the degree I thought my chest would explode. My other symptoms worsened also.

I know that most who take it say it helps them but I also know it isn't the case for everyone. I don't agree with everything Dr. Rawls says in his book but he isn't the only LLMD to warn about magnesium so there must be a reason for that. I don't really know why I have the reaction to it that I do while others can take it with no issues but I am sensitive to a lot of things.


Interesting, thanks for sharing. You're def not the first patient I've heard from that says they've had issues with magnesium. Honestly it seems like the ratio skews towards 9:1, in favor of magnesium helping patients and for a subset (like yourself) it makes things worse. I think like always with these diseases there isn't one universal rule, trial and error is how we learn what works for our cases. There are general rules but they don't always hold, there is just too much variability with these diseases and how they manifest and how each of our bodies' respond.

I'll have to look up Klinghardt's take on magnesium, I'm curious as to the potential hypotheses of why magnesium might hurt some patients.

WalkingbyFaith
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:17 AM (GMT -7)   
sebreg said...
Octobrsky13 said...
Magnesium makes my symptoms much worse. I've tried it multiple times in various forms and had the same reaction every time. I tried taking Natural Calm several times for sleep issues when I was in remission and felt activity in my brain - tingling, skin crawling, pulsating - so I stopped it. I hadn't had those sensations for several years before I took magnesium. . . .

I know that most who take it say it helps them but I also know it isn't the case for everyone. I don't agree with everything Dr. Rawls says in his book but he isn't the only LLMD to warn about magnesium so there must be a reason for that. I don't really know why I have the reaction to it that I do while others can take it with no issues but I am sensitive to a lot of things.
. . . .

You're def not the first patient I've heard from that says they've had issues with magnesium. Honestly it seems like the ratio skews towards 9:1, in favor of magnesium helping patients and for a subset (like yourself) it makes things worse. . . .

I'll have to look up Klinghardt's take on magnesium, I'm curious as to the potential hypotheses of why magnesium might hurt some patients.


Thank you for sharing. I'm glad to know there's something to this. If anyone knows or finds out the hypothesis behind this issue with magnesium, please let us know.

Seems like there's always more to learn and discover.

Octobrsky13
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:27 AM (GMT -7)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
sebreg said...
Octobrsky13 said...
Magnesium makes my symptoms much worse. I've tried it multiple times in various forms and had the same reaction every time. I tried taking Natural Calm several times for sleep issues when I was in remission and felt activity in my brain - tingling, skin crawling, pulsating - so I stopped it. I hadn't had those sensations for several years before I took magnesium. . . .

I know that most who take it say it helps them but I also know it isn't the case for everyone. I don't agree with everything Dr. Rawls says in his book but he isn't the only LLMD to warn about magnesium so there must be a reason for that. I don't really know why I have the reaction to it that I do while others can take it with no issues but I am sensitive to a lot of things.
. . . .


You're def not the first patient I've heard from that says they've had issues with magnesium. Honestly it seems like the ratio skews towards 9:1, in favor of magnesium helping patients and for a subset (like yourself) it makes things worse. . . .

I'll have to look up Klinghardt's take on magnesium, I'm curious as to the potential hypotheses of why magnesium might hurt some patients.


Thank you for sharing. I'm glad to know there's something to this. If anyone knows or finds out the hypothesis behind this issue with magnesium, please let us know.

Seems like there's always more to learn and discover.


I also would love to know. I do try to pay special attention to eating foods with high magnesium content b/c I am concerned with getting enough. I don't seem to have a problem with food. Just one of the many mysteries…

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:29 AM (GMT -7)   
Ok I did some research because this is very interesting to me. I posted a few links below, but it does seem to help the majority. Still, you have to listen to your body and if it's not helping or making things worse, then don't take it.

Rawls: "aggressive magnesium supplements...can worsen lyme" but aggressive not defined.
https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/just-how-reliable-are-lyme-disease-lab-testsMinerals

Magnesium and calcium are the primary minerals measured.

Magnesium. Magnesium levels are often low during chronic illness. Aggressive magnesium supplements, however, can often worsen Lyme symptoms. Generally magnesium levels will return to normal as health improves.
Calcium. Persistently elevated calcium levels can indicate the presence of a small benign tumor producing excessive parathyroid hormone (PTH). Symptoms can mimic fibromyalgia and chronic Lyme. Follow up testing should include PTH levels.

Klinghart: magnesium stearate safe
https://www.clinicaleducation.org/news/a-new-perspective-why-i-believe-magnesium-stearate-is-safe-by-dietrich-klinghardt-md-phd/

Magnesium a must for lyme patients:http://www.lyme-disease-research-database.com/lyme_disease_blog_files/magnesium-lyme-disease.html

The magnesium debate:http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=125589;p=0

mpost
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Date Joined Feb 2015
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   Posted 9/14/2017 9:35 AM (GMT -7)   
Kat1000 said...
Ok I did some research because this is very interesting to me. I posted a few links below, but it does seem to help the majority.


guys magnesium is in the cowden protocol.
www.nutramedix.ec/ns/magnesium
it would not be there if it would not be useful to the majority of people.

i think the majority of people that discover magnesium makes them sick should immediately test their kidney function... and magnesium serum levels.

Kat1000
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Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:38 AM (GMT -7)   
mpost - that last link mentioned Cowden.
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

Kat1000
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 509
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:56 AM (GMT -7)   
I also saw conflicting theories about using mag while treating bartonella. I believe unless you have a bad reaction, it's a balance. Mag helps your immune system, which is important for fighting. It's all very confusing, but if you listen to your own body that is often the best guide.
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and exchange mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. 7/10 added LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps

Octobrsky13
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 9/14/2017 9:57 AM (GMT -7)   
There's an interesting thread from July 29 titled:

Dr. Carolyn Dean: Why Minerals Are The Key To Health (Especially Magnesium)

If anyone is interested there is some good info from GeorgiaHunter as to why some may have an issue with magnesium supplementation. Better than I've heard from any doctor.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27355
   Posted 9/14/2017 10:53 AM (GMT -7)   
Octobrsky13 said...
There's an interesting thread from July 29 titled:

Dr. Carolyn Dean: Why Minerals Are The Key To Health (Especially Magnesium)

If anyone is interested there is some good info from GeorgiaHunter as to why some may have an issue with magnesium supplementation. Better than I've heard from any doctor.


Yes, I remember that discussion - it's definitely worth a listen. I found the link to the thread.

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3890018
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

The Warrior
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Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 9/15/2017 11:44 PM (GMT -7)   
Octobrsky13 said...
Magnesium makes my symptoms much worse. I've tried it multiple times in various forms and had the same reaction every time. I tried taking Natural Calm several times for sleep issues when I was in remission and felt activity in my brain - tingling, skin crawling, pulsating - so I stopped it. I hadn't had those sensations for several years before I took magnesium.

When I relapsed a year and a half ago two LLMD's recommended it for cardiac issues I was having. I took just 100 mg. and it worsened my cardiac issues to the degree I thought my chest would explode. My other symptoms worsened also.

I know that most who take it say it helps them but I also know it isn't the case for everyone. I don't agree with everything Dr. Rawls says in his book but he isn't the only LLMD to warn about magnesium so there must be a reason for that. I don't really know why I have the reaction to it that I do while others can take it with no issues but I am sensitive to a lot of things.


I react to all kinds of oral magnesium as well, but until now I don't think it has to do anything with lyme directly.

I think it has to do more with the way in which our bodies are processing the magnesium, some genetic predisposition or mutation. When I take magnesium (even the smallest amount), it could even be just dust from the pill, I get a very particular brain fog and also fatigue; the next day I develop red itchy rashes. On the bright side it does give me energy as well and it makes me focused, which is why I take it sometimes regardless of my reaction to it.

I understand exactly what you mean when you say "activity in my brain", that sensation becomes a burden specially if I take it close to bed time. I just can't fall asleep that easily with my mind overactive like that and nothing really disturbs my sleep, which makes the whole thing even more interesting.

I don't seem to react the same way to transdermal magnesium. I use it religiously every morning, it helps with my energy levels and it actually calms my mind. And it must work since my magnesium levels in tests have come out very good.

On the other hand magnesium in epsom salt for baths/foot soaks, does make me feel similar to when taking it orally, but the rashes are not that violent. I still get some of the brain fog and fatigue, but I just power through it because I like the the energy that it gives me some days after.
First symptoms in 2014.

Diagnosed in May 2017:
•Borrelia Burgdorferi
•Bartonella
•Babesia
(DNAConnexions PCR)

Other Conditions:
•MTHFR mutation

Started treatment in May 2017:
•Dr. Zhang's herbal protocol

Georgia Hunter
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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1995
   Posted 9/16/2017 10:45 PM (GMT -7)   
The Warrior said...
Octobrsky13 said...
Magnesium makes my symptoms much worse. I've tried it multiple times in various forms and had the same reaction every time. I tried taking Natural Calm several times for sleep issues when I was in remission and felt activity in my brain - tingling, skin crawling, pulsating - so I stopped it. I hadn't had those sensations for several years before I took magnesium.

When I relapsed a year and a half ago two LLMD's recommended it for cardiac issues I was having. I took just 100 mg. and it worsened my cardiac issues to the degree I thought my chest would explode. My other symptoms worsened also.

I know that most who take it say it helps them but I also know it isn't the case for everyone. I don't agree with everything Dr. Rawls says in his book but he isn't the only LLMD to warn about magnesium so there must be a reason for that. I don't really know why I have the reaction to it that I do while others can take it with no issues but I am sensitive to a lot of things.


I react to all kinds of oral magnesium as well, but until now I don't think it has to do anything with lyme directly.

I think it has to do more with the way in which our bodies are processing the magnesium, some genetic predisposition or mutation. When I take magnesium (even the smallest amount), it could even be just dust from the pill, I get a very particular brain fog and also fatigue; the next day I develop red itchy rashes. On the bright side it does give me energy as well and it makes me focused, which is why I take it sometimes regardless of my reaction to it.

I understand exactly what you mean when you say "activity in my brain", that sensation becomes a burden specially if I take it close to bed time. I just can't fall asleep that easily with my mind overactive like that and nothing really disturbs my sleep, which makes the whole thing even more interesting.

I don't seem to react the same way to transdermal magnesium. I use it religiously every morning, it helps with my energy levels and it actually calms my mind. And it must work since my magnesium levels in tests have come out very good.

On the other hand magnesium in epsom salt for baths/foot soaks, does make me feel similar to when taking it orally, but the rashes are not that violent. I still get some of the brain fog and fatigue, but I just power through it because I like the the energy that it gives me some days after.

It's most likely a bacterial issue in your GI tract rather than a genetic issue. The bacteria affect our absorption of oral agents and the possibility exists that oral supplementation of Mg may displace bound metals from the bacteria. Your reaction to that is from your body trying to do something with the metals. It would be interesting to see if your stools sink or float after oral magnesium supplementation.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3849
   Posted 9/17/2017 6:37 AM (GMT -7)   
Georgia-

"It would be interesting to see if your stools sink or float after oral magnesium supplementation."

Stinky subject, but what would the above outcomes mean?
Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / repairing / fine tuning since then. What an adventure this has been.

ChickenArise
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 1227
   Posted 9/17/2017 12:21 PM (GMT -7)   
astroman said...
Georgia-

"It would be interesting to see if your stools sink or float after oral magnesium supplementation."

Stinky subject, but what would the above outcomes mean?


Thats the drawback. Havent had a true solid one in over a month, but what is solid sinks.
AUG14:Mold Sick.FALL16:Clinical Bart/Borellia/Yeast
NOV16:Lung Pain. JAN17:Morg Scalp (resolved)
FEB17: Pupils, throat glow UV light.
Rx: Abx Break, Probiotic Rebuild, FLZ q72hr
Sup: Ozone, Magnets, Dental implants removed
Proto:Modified Klinghardt
Tx: self

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 9/17/2017 3:14:12 PM (GMT-6)


yancync
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 470
   Posted 9/17/2017 1:47 PM (GMT -7)   
DS reacted terribly to oral magnesium early in treatment but now after 1 year, takes it daily without problems. His LLNP requested he start taking it daily it last spring. We did epsom salt foot baths and magnesium spray without problems.

He takes Nutramedix Mag Maleate.
Parent of teen DS w/ CDC+ Lyme test Nov 2015, late stage Lyme + mycoplasma, bartonella, babesia. Currently treating with antibiotics/anti-malerials, multivitamin, magnesium, CBD oil.

Website I started: ParentsofLymeKids.com aka Lyme Disease 101 for Parents
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