Ospa, immune suppression and molecular mimicry, autoimmune diseases

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Kaitlan
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Date Joined Mar 2017
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   Posted 10/1/2017 11:09 PM (GMT -7)   
Trying to understand how autoimmune diseases fit into the theory that borrelia sheds Ospa and that this damages our b cells and therefore suppresses our immune system.

I know it's widely speculated that auto immune diseases can be caused by molecular mimicry in which bacteria and viruses produce antigens that are molecularly similar to our bodies tissue. This causes our immune system to mount an attack on our body as if it were foreign. I know there's evidence showing that EBV may be a huge contributor causing many different autoimmune diseases by this mechanism.

So Ospa suppresses our immune system and allows other dormant infections to reactivate and our immune systems are no longer have the ability to fight off these infections for long periods of time, sometimes indefinitely. Is it possible that because of the prolonged period of time with these infections active in our bodies that this is what is giving molecular mimicry the chance to really take hold and develop into autoimmune diseases? (I know I'm probably reaching)

I know there are no definite answers to these questions, but I would be happy to hear anyone's thoughts or opinions on this topic. I originally saw the information about the Ospa theory on Lyme Crime video on YouTube. Though it's hard to follow some of the information in the video because of the way it's presented, since doing my own digging it seems that most of the information has a factual and sensible basis. The one thing I have not found information on is how autoimmunity plays into this theory.

Thanks!

astroman
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   Posted 10/2/2017 8:51 AM (GMT -7)   
One member here comes to mind as far as posts about what your mentioning. IHL made some posts on "Ospa" I believe. Might try Healing Well's search. Its so out there most here have never heard of it much less understand it.

Pirouette
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   Posted 10/2/2017 10:41 AM (GMT -7)   
Here is another recent discussion on the OspA issue and immune response as well as some of the issues with the LymeCrymes website and the information it promotes. This is a complicated topic. It's necessary for us to continue digging into the truth - I think some of it is found in the LymeCrymes information but not all. It's good to discuss and continue searching.

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3917283

-p
Lyme Moderator
Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '00; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses & GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many many supps; cholestyramine!

Kaitlan
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Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/2/2017 11:27 AM (GMT -7)   
Hey thanks for the replies. I've read though everything I could find on this site but have yet to find any explanation about how there are those of us who have suppressed immune systems and also autoimmune diseases.

The reason I'm caught up on this is because I'm at a crossroads as to which direction to go in treatment. The Ospa theory seems to have a lot of truth and almost has me sold if I could have some understanding of how autoimmunity could play into it.

On the other hand there's the theory that we get the Lyme bacteria and through molecular mimicry this causes the rise of an autoimmune disease which develops into several autoimmune diseases and that this is what's really causing the wide variety of symptoms. But the people who believe this also believe the way to treat is to suppress the over active immune system to get it back on track, which could be disastrous if the Ospa theory is correct. That's basically what these doctors in Nevada believe and they treat Lyme disease as an autoimmune problem and worry about the infection later if need be. I don't know if I buy this theory as much but the two docs seem pretty sure of it and claim to have high success.

/youtu.be/HI8XzxOtSU4

/youtu.be/BB7tEkUJGN8

The first video explains their stance. The second video is to clarify more because they actually got "attacked" in comments by Beaux Reliosis (from Lyme Crime) and others who believe the immune suppression theory.

Post Edited (Kaitlan) : 10/2/2017 12:35:31 PM (GMT-6)


gfields
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Date Joined Oct 2015
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   Posted 10/2/2017 6:24 PM (GMT -7)   
I think you can have a suppressed immune system and also have autoimmune disease, but I could be wrong. The reason I say that is because the "immune system" is not just one thing. It's a system with many different branches. One branch could be over-performing, while another branch is under-performing. At least, that's my understanding. Others can correct me if I'm wrong.

For example, one type of B cell could be made ineffective by OspA binding to a receptor, while another type of B cell is totally uninhibited, and in fact, over reacting as it's fighting an organ in your body that it has deemed a threat. Kind of like what happens during hashimotos.

gfields
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Date Joined Oct 2015
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   Posted 10/2/2017 7:05 PM (GMT -7)   
I just watched those videos. That's very interesting. I think I need to start seeing an LLMD with this philosphy. I keep taking abx, but feel worse. I may be one of the types of people they're describing who just get worse with abx, and not better. The only thing that has ever relieved my ill feeling is steriods I took for sudden hearing loss. I instantly felt like a normal person again. My head pressure went away. Maybe I have autoimmune attacking my brain.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4003
   Posted 10/2/2017 8:49 PM (GMT -7)   
gfields said...
I think you can have a suppressed immune system and also have autoimmune disease, but I could be wrong. .....


Many do. Hashimoto antibodies with low CD-57 probably isnt all that uncommon in the lyme world.

Some supplements that a few swear by have mixed opinions for use by autoimmune people according to certain Drs. LDN, and that Factor stuff are good examples. ....its confusing.

mpost
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Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1166
   Posted 10/2/2017 8:58 PM (GMT -7)   
i have a word of caution: just because some people claim they have "great success" rates does not mean they do.

there are loads of desperate people with chronic lyme and they have money to spend to recover health. some of them are rich and spend their fortune on healing. after that they are still sick.

these types of videos are for them.

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/2/2017 9:17 PM (GMT -7)   
I understand that many people have immune suppression and autoimmunity. I myself have low cd-57 and Hashimoto's. I guess I'm just looking for information on the mechanism by which the two come to exist together.

I know there is a lot of science based information for molecular mimicry as a cause for autoimmunity. Like when our bodies creates antibodies against Epstein Barr Virus and EBV antigens happen to look a lot like thyroid tissue. You then have antibodies that think your thyroid tissue is a bad guy and attacks it as well.

Does anyone know if infections have to be active in order for molecular mimicry to take place?

If molecular mimicry can't take place when EBV and other opportunist infections are dormant, this would explain why so many people who have Lyme also have autoimmune diseases. And why so many other people who have EBV, and the like, live symptom free and don't develop autoimmune diseases.

If Lyme suppresses the immune system enough that old infections reactivate and then after a prolonged amount of time molecular mimicry takes place and brings about autoimmune diseases.

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/2/2017 9:31 PM (GMT -7)   
- gfields

Interesting to hear steroids brought you relief.
This is where I get confused, steroids suppress the immune system, you would think that if Lyme is already suppressing our immune system that suppressing it more would be a bad thing. That if we were to keep suppressing our immune system that infections could just thrive with free range. Yet there seem to be people with Lyme who get relief from steroids or suppressing the immune system naturally, but could this just be short lived relief? It seems that the docs in the video think autoimmunity is the big problem with Lyme patients and they rarely even need to treat the infection after they get the autoimmune problem under control, just don't see how this can be true if the underlying problem that caused the autoimmunity in the first place was molecular mimicry from infections.

mpost
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Date Joined Feb 2015
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   Posted 10/2/2017 11:13 PM (GMT -7)   
question: where are the chronic lyme people cured by these two doctors ? why dont they flood us with messages here? "stop taking abx, these two cured me with steroids".

where are these people hiding and why?

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27855
   Posted 10/2/2017 11:28 PM (GMT -7)   
Kaitlan said...
- gfields

Interesting to hear steroids brought you relief.
This is where I get confused, steroids suppress the immune system, you would think that if Lyme is already suppressing our immune system that suppressing it more would be a bad thing. That if we were to keep suppressing our immune system that infections could just thrive with free range. Yet there seem to be people with Lyme who get relief from steroids or suppressing the immune system naturally, but could this just be short lived relief? It seems that the docs in the video think autoimmunity is the big problem with Lyme patients and they rarely even need to treat the infection after they get the autoimmune problem under control, just don't see how this can be true if the underlying problem that caused the autoimmunity in the first place was molecular mimicry from infections.


Before I was diagnosed with LD, I had high cortisol, and one of the tests was a dexamethasone suppression test. This was to test for Cushings disease. People who do have Cushings their cortisol usually stays high with this test.

I took low dose dexamethasone (steroid) - I believe it was 1 mg. in the evening. Next morning I tested my cortisol levels.

That day, I felt the best I had in a long time...my joint pain was gone. Dexamethasone (and other steroids) do have anti-inflammatory/pain relieving effects.
That is why I felt better.

But, in higher doses...and long periods of time, they do suppress the immune system..and will allow the infection to spread.

I don't know what the effect long-term effect would be when someone has autoimmunity from lyme...
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27855
   Posted 10/2/2017 11:29 PM (GMT -7)   
gfields said...
I just watched those videos. That's very interesting. I think I need to start seeing an LLMD with this philosphy. I keep taking abx, but feel worse. I may be one of the types of people they're describing who just get worse with abx, and not better. The only thing that has ever relieved my ill feeling is steriods I took for sudden hearing loss. I instantly felt like a normal person again. My head pressure went away. Maybe I have autoimmune attacking my brain.


I wonder if you were to take the very low doses of steroids - if that would be enough.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/2/2017 11:47 PM (GMT -7)   
- mpost, the doctors in the videos say they suppress the immune system naturally. They claim to have testimonials on there website but I haven't looked. They did have a recent video where they had an interview with one of there Lyme patients. I'm not saying I believe them, I'm just interested in what they're saying.

gfields
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Date Joined Oct 2015
Total Posts : 889
   Posted 10/3/2017 12:11 AM (GMT -7)   
I read the wikipedia page on molecular mimicry and I'm not sure I really understand what it is. It sounds very complicated, but essentially it sounds like what's happening is you have two peptides in the body. One is produced by your body naturally, and one is introduced from a foreign source. The peptide from a foreign source is so similar to the one your body makes naturally that your body can't recognize the difference, yet the body knows that it's foreign, so the body tries to attack it, and then it ends up attacking both the foreign one and the one your body naturally produces, so it starts attacking itself, and hence you wind up with an autoimmune condition.

Keep in mind, this explanation is coming from a person who doesn't even know what a peptide is. smile

...

Concerning the steroid use, it was specifically prednisone. I'm assuming that it was the anti-inflammatory response that made me feel better, but I don't really know. My major/most debilitating symptom is constant head pressure/encephalitis. Reducing brain inflammation makes me feel much better.

Post Edited (gfields) : 10/3/2017 1:23:46 AM (GMT-6)


astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 10/3/2017 9:00 AM (GMT -7)   
.........."The peptide from a foreign source is so similar to the one your body makes naturally that your body can't recognize the difference, yet the body knows that it's foreign, so the body tries to attack it, and then it ends up attacking both the foreign one and the one your body naturally produces, so it starts attacking itself, and hence you wind up with an autoimmune condition"

Anyone researching their own autoimmune has read this countless times and its more popular than ever now. I'm guessing it branched out from celiac. Celiac is the only obvious autoimmune condition that seems to make sense.

But in order for gluten to start hashimoto thyroid, you would need leaky gut for the glutan molecular mimicry to happen.

As far as infections being responsible for molecular mimicry, like bacteria - I have wondered if this has just been assumed by the Functional and Natural Path area the last ten years or so, or if this has actually been proven? I always have wondered the original source, as now its just shared info.

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/3/2017 4:15 PM (GMT -7)   
- astroman

There are autoimmune diseases that have been proven to be triggered by infections through molecular mimicry. PANDAS and rheumatic fever are two that I know of off the top of my head but there are probably others. It seems to now be more widely accepted that infections can cause many autoimmune diseases, including Hashimoto's.

PANDAS-
childrenstreatmentcenter.com/pandas-disease-following-strep-throat

Rheumatic Fever-
emedicine.medscape.com/article/236582-

Autoimmune diseases are triggered by infections-
www.immed.org/illness/autoimmune_illness_research.html

Post Edited (Kaitlan) : 10/3/2017 5:18:32 PM (GMT-6)


mcspike
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Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 165
   Posted 10/3/2017 4:57 PM (GMT -7)   
Im one of those Lymies who seems to NOT do well on antibiotics-I get waaaay worse. My ND suggested I try a drug thats commonly prescribex for auto immune illness(but I cannot remember the name).

Long before we discovered i had Lyme> I had allergies, asthma, chronic sinusitis, migraines, and low thyroid = all autoimmune except the chronic sinusitis.

Here's a VERY interesting book to read that was written by a pair of scientists who had been on government grants until they discovered tje truth behind autoimmune and chronic illnesses. The book is called 'The virus within'. It explains how we've screwed up our immune systems by vaccines. The early vaccines were created using living primate liver cells. The vaccines 'inherited' the viruses in the herpes family. Herpes oringinated in primates, thats why youll see the addition of 'human' proceeding which herpes virus. For example human herpes virus 6 is what cuases the childhood virus rosiola. We ALL have HHV6, but when it becomes reactivated by other viruses such as HIV it causes AIDS. When HHV6 reactivates from/by intracellular bacterium the result is auto immune. Most people refer to that result as CFS, fibromyalgia, gulf war syndrome, and ALS....

The root cause of sabotaging our immune systems isnt borrellia, bart, babs, ehrliciosis, anaplasmosis, etc its viral reactivation CAUSED by vaccines!!!

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/3/2017 5:45 PM (GMT -7)   
-mcspike
I'm starting to agree that the people who are anti vaccines might be on to something, but don't know enough about it to really make an opinion. I'll check out that book.

Kaitlan
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Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 10/3/2017 6:13 PM (GMT -7)   
This article talks about how infections can cause autoimmune diseases through many different mechanisms, including molecular mimicry, I'm not yet familiar with the other mechanisms. It has a section specifically about borrelia.

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2665673

Here's another article titled "Bacterial Infections and the Pathogenesis of Autoimmune Conditions". It's written in more technical terms but talks about Ospa. It seems like this one has all the information and lots of references but I'm honestly just having a hard time digesting it. If there's anyone out there who is better with this type of terminology who could decipher this information I would be very grateful. If not I'm going to attempt to but it may take a while.
www.bjmp.org/content/bacterial-infections-and-pathogenesis-autoimmune-conditions

Post Edited (Kaitlan) : 10/3/2017 7:18:37 PM (GMT-6)


gfields
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   Posted 10/3/2017 7:14 PM (GMT -7)   
It's interesting that all the key lyme "scientists" seem to bring up OspA a lot in their research papers and in the vaccine itself. I don't know why they think it's important, but what I do know is that where there's smoke, there's fire.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 10/3/2017 7:27 PM (GMT -7)   
mcspike said...
Im one of those Lymies who seems to NOT do well on antibiotics-I get waaaay worse. My ND suggested I try a drug thats commonly prescribex for auto immune illness(but I cannot remember the name).

Long before we discovered i had Lyme> I had allergies, asthma, chronic sinusitis, migraines, and low thyroid = all autoimmune except the chronic sinusitis........


One drug for general use of all autoimmune illnesses? Was it just a steroid maybe? I cant think of anything else. If you remember please less us know. I've been offered steroids but declined due to the possible immune suppression letting lyme take off.

Some autoimmune is actually assumed by conventional medicine. In reality, proven autoimmune illnesses have associated antibodies. Example: I've had both Hashimoto antibodies for 20 years, now only one this last six month. Vitaligo is also listed as autoimmune (have that too), but there is not an antibody associated with it..........so how do they know for sure its autoimmune? Just me thinking out loud.

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 10/4/2017 5:19 AM (GMT -7)   
astroman said...

As far as infections being responsible for molecular mimicry, like bacteria - I have wondered if this has just been assumed by the Functional and Natural Path area the last ten years or so, or if this has actually been proven? I always have wondered the original source, as now its just shared info.


No this is definitely proven and widely accepted. Guillaine-Barre syndrome as a byproduct of C jejuni infection and H pylori mediated anti-lewis antigen ab's are the best examples. There are two reasons for this. The first is obviously immune subversion. Having antigens that look like human antigens is a great way to dupe immune cells into self-tolerance. Tolerance can be broken however. Perhaps a sudden rise in the expression of antigen by proliferating bacteria could be one way. This reason is probably exploited more by parasites who prefer to lay low and only occasionally cause disease. Ie like most of our chronic conditions that are contingent on all sorts of life style factors that may lead to immune suppression and overexpression of certain natural microbiota that otherwise remain hidden without causing symptoms. Lyme fits this description when you consider that it doesn't normally cause much disease in its natural hosts

The other reason is that microorganisms infecting a certain tissue express self antigen for the purposes of adhesion to cell membranes which is often a first step to intracellularization. So for example gram-negative bacteria will often express sugar residues on the tips of their membrane lipopolysaccharides that resemble human antigen because in those tissues are lectins (sugar binding proteins) that bind those antigens. Remember self-antigens aren't just innocuous proteins that stick out from cell membranes. They are functional components of the human cell and cell-to-cell communication pathways. If a bacteria is mimicking it it's either because it's trying to avoid the immune system, or because it's trying to hijack the pathway that antigen is involved in.

As to the original question. It doesn't take molecular mimicry a long time to get a hold. Guillaine Barre syndrome is almost instantaneous (well there's the lag of antibody development). It's almost ridiculous, in my personal opinion, to consider autoimmunity and infectious disease as two separate issues. The former is just a part of the latter. There is no reason the autoimmunity wouldn't shut off with resolution of the infection (and importantly coinfections). The body has an amazingly redundant system of checks and balances to prevent injuring itself. It takes some serious wit to mess that up and maintain it. Most of the time, as we've seen with chronic lyme vs plds, the belief that autoimmunity is self-perpetuating is built out of logical fallacy. Ie absence of evidence for infection = evidence of absence. One day perhaps people will understand the difference between acute phase and chronic phase and why identifying pathogens in the chronic phase can be so darned difficult. Until then we keep treating infectious diseases with immune suppressants rolleyes DONT DO THAT. Yes it might hurt when you treat and raise immune function. That is the essence of a herxheimer. You are releasing inflammatory antigens from dead bacteria. Some of these might be promoting cross reactive antibodies to your own tissues. Your "autoimmune" disease might flare but at the expense of dead bacteria. Immunosuppressants might calm the symptoms but at the expense of facilitating disease progression.

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 10/4/2017 5:42 AM (GMT -7)   
Kaitlan said...
This article talks about how infections can cause autoimmune diseases through many different mechanisms, including molecular mimicry, I'm not yet familiar with the other mechanisms. It has a section specifically about borrelia.

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2665673

Here's another article titled "Bacterial Infections and the Pathogenesis of Autoimmune Conditions". It's written in more technical terms but talks about Ospa. It seems like this one has all the information and lots of references but I'm honestly just having a hard time digesting it. If there's anyone out there who is better with this type of terminology who could decipher this information I would be very grateful. If not I'm going to attempt to but it may take a while.
www.bjmp.org/content/bacterial-infections-and-pathogenesis-autoimmune-conditions


The other mechanisms are all pretty similar to each other. Basically the way the immune system determines what's self and what's not is by the activation of pattern-recognition receptors (PRRs). These receptors recognize pathogen associated molecular patterns (PAMPs). You'll see a number of PRRs mentioned such as Toll-like Receptors (TLRs) and NOD-like receptors. And so basically there are certain parts of microorganisms that are widely conserved evolutionarily and don't exist in humans and the body uses these to distinguish bacteria from self. These are totally independent of the parts of antigens (epitopes) that antibodies bind. For example look up the structure of lipopolysaccharide (LPS). There is a lipid A domain on one end and an o-antigen domain on the other. The lipid A domain is made of fatty acids that are unique to bacteria and activate certain TLRs while the o-antigen domain often mimics human tissues and is not a good choice for distinguishing self from nonself. However, the o-antigen region is the primary target for antibodies because it is the most accessible on the outer surface of the bacteria

I don't think the other mechanisms of autoimmunity are very well defined, but basically their main feature... PRR is activated by a bacterial pathogen due to PAMP. Human tissue is damaged by inflammation. Damaged tissue is presented to the adaptive immune system. Normally this would do nothing. But because PRR is activated the body treats the human antigen as if it came from the same bacterial source. As you can see the flow pathways in the diagram of the first link are almost identical. It's just minor contextual differences. Molecular mimicry is probably more likely to break self tolerance because there is an overexpression of a particular antigen and it doesn't require preexiting tissue destruction. Self antigen is derived from the bacteria and the human tissue. Epitope spreading less likely because self antigen is only derived from the human. Bystander activation so unlikely that I question the validity of this theory because there's no self antigen involved in the adaptive immune response at all. Cryptic antigen presentation is just a scenario where an antigen is so underexpressed that self tolerance doesn't even exist in the first place. Basically hidden components, or break down products that normally wouldn't ever be detected by the immune system except during infection. And therefor tolerance was never developed

What these all have in common though... PAMP->PRR->inflammation. Without PAMP, in theory, you shouldn't have autoimmunity. Without infection, you shouldn't have PAMP. The whole idea of post-infection autoimmunity deserves some serious scrutiny

Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 10/4/2017 6:59:53 AM (GMT-6)


astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 10/4/2017 7:55 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for the info.

On that note, where do we find this in plain English?(ha ha)

"These receptors recognize pathogen associated molecular patterns (PAMPs). You'll see a number of PRRs mentioned such as Toll-like Receptors (TLRs) and NOD-like receptors"

There needs to be molecular mimicry cliff notes/for dummies web site for the average reader. Maybe thats why most people, Drs included lean towards ignoring the details.

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/4/2017 9:35:33 AM (GMT-6)

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