24-7 hungry for last week- anyone know why? Georgia?

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dbwilco
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Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 202
   Posted 11/10/2017 3:48 AM (GMT -7)   
on a 2 week off pulse after 2 weeks on pulse of tetracycline,fluconazole, liposomal oil of oregano and monolaurin... after barely EVER being hungry (i tend to eat low carb, oat bran, brown rice,quinoa), i have gnawing hunger 24-7....truly bothersome

thought maybe blood sugar, but nope...i saw piroutte mention something in another post about this happening after attacking bio-films...both oregano and monolaurin do that..

i have neuro lyme so perhaps it messed something up hormonally with HPA axis? read something else about cytokines down regulating receptors? im afraid to go back on pulse as i dont know if its an inflammation issue.... im hoping this passes, as it is almost to the level of nausea...even after i eat the gnawing hunger comes back in 10 minutes

has this happened to anyone else, and if so did it pass? if so, with treatment or time?

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27153
   Posted 11/10/2017 10:54 AM (GMT -7)   
I will bump this - maybe Georgia Hunter will be back on sometime today or this evening.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 6049
   Posted 11/10/2017 11:18 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi there -

I have the opposite problem - never hungry.

When the biofilms got busted up, I would eat and be hungry WHILE I was eating and for hours afterwards. Now that I think back, I think it makes some sense. The biofilms get busted up and everything hiding in them gets released all at once, which can stir up quite a bit of trouble. And everyone's hungry. Particularly parasites.

I've watched my stool pretty closely and never see signs of parasites. But I suspect them after initially busting bilfilms because of the weird hunger reactions.

Plus, a few months before I started Lyme tx I was on a pretty intense fast and did juicing and broth for a couple weeks. When I sat down for my first real meal (chicken and broccoli) and brought the fork with the first bite close to my mouth - at the first whif of the aroma of food my "insides" literally lurched forward. It was so, so very strange I'll never forget that sensation. I still think this is a good sign of parasites but could also be from yeast/fungus I had just started treating. They also rely on food we eat to survive.

Unfortunately, I had to stop the anti-biofilms because they made it impossible to do my weekly lab draws because of the vanco I'm on. I don't know why. But they also keep my port clearer. It's a tough struggle.

But to your question, I think biofilms is the key. For me, the increased hunger was a good sign because I fight low appetite. And I think the biofilm interferes with the functioning of the mucosal lining, which can cause problems (poor nutrient/meds/supps absorption and signaling to other body systems for proper GI functioning and probably affecting appetite triggers.)

But it could also probably mean there are more pathogens being released that are hungry. Your pulsing might be allowing the pathogens too much time to grow and evolve .

And there is some connection/interaction between yeast/fungal overgrowth and biofilms and I haven't really looked into it yet. But it's like they sometimes act with this "quorum sensing" ability.

Also, I wouldn't pulse the antifungals. I understand why MDs do this but I think it might help build resistance in some people, since yeast/fungus also feed off the food we eat.

Also, Fluconazole is a systemic antifungal - do you know if you have systemic issues or did your MD just prescribe it as your antifungal? Since most y/f originates in the GI, that's where most people's y/f overgrowth is worst and a gentler, effective local antifungal is Nystatin (PURE Nystatin powder is the best) and it's safe to take daily while you're on abx tx (it generally doesn't go past the mucosal lining - doesn't have to be processed by liver, etc.)

So first I would try taking more of the Fuconazole, since you have it but I'd ask your LLMD for PURE Nystatin powder Rx. The dose is the same 500,000 units 3x/day - just like the Nystain or Nilstat pills. But if you can't get the powder, the pills will be fine. But I wouldn't pulse them. Often the generally prescribed dose is too low for most people but it's a start (and that's why I like the powder plus it has no enteric coating and can coat whatever it touches).

Hope that's helpful.

-p
LYME FORUM MODERATOR

Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '98; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses, GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many supps; cholestyramine

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 202
   Posted 11/11/2017 2:51 AM (GMT -7)   
thanks Pirouette

my LLMD uses Fluconazole for the role he believes it plays in killing Lyme, not for yeast

ive never been hungry for a lonnnng time until i used this past pulse...my LLMD believes Monolaurin is a powerful biofilm buster and that i "stirred some things up"...and yes i am hungry now while eating and after eating ....hoping it resolves soon

Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1989
   Posted 11/11/2017 7:52 AM (GMT -7)   
I'm at my weekly cheer competition and going to the game afterwards. I'll be home tomorrow but still won't be able to help unless I can find somerhing.

Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 6049
   Posted 11/11/2017 10:28 AM (GMT -7)   
dbwilco -

OK - I think MDs are using Fluconazole less and less for Lyme these days. But it will kill y/f so that's a side benefit. And if you have more of an overload than you think you do, then the y/f could be surging during the off-weeks.

Also - are you on an anti-parasite? That is the 2nd thing you might try to incorporate. And a good GI binder.

-p
LYME FORUM MODERATOR

Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '98; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses, GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many supps; cholestyramine

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 202
   Posted 11/11/2017 1:25 PM (GMT -7)   
Pirouette

in general will diflucan hit yeast in the gut or are there areas where it would not hit (intestines) and therefore nystatin is recommended as well?

i dont think mine is a yeast issue, but just wondering, just in case for future application...

Post Edited (dbwilco) : 11/11/2017 2:14:16 PM (GMT-7)


Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 6049
   Posted 11/11/2017 4:13 PM (GMT -7)   
The systemic antifungals like diflucan/fluconazole can address yeast/fungus in the stomach and intestines. Then it gets absorbed THRU the mucosal lining of the GI and enters the blood stream, where it's processed through the liver. So this is why liver enzymes need to be checked monthly and why it's a good idea to support liver metabolization of these drugs. The liver also works overtime processing the yeast/fungus in the blood.

So the systemic antifungals are used to hit yeast/fungal body-wide, including the GI.

Whereas a local antifungal like the Nystatin concentrates primarily in the GI. And this is the preferred antifungal if you don't have a systemic issue or you're using just to prevent y/f overgrowth in the GI before it spreads to the entire body.

It's generally not necessary to take BOTH local and systemic antifungal - UNLESS your case is quite severe and then it's important to hit it hard and fast and a dual approach can do that.

And in the case of severe GI overgrowth or overgrowth in the throat/mouth/sinuses/ears/face, I recommend the powder form of Nystatin because it hits more of the GI - can coat mouth and throat as well, when pills that have an enteric coating can't be effective until they hit the stomach.

-p
LYME FORUM MODERATOR

Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '98; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses, GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many supps; cholestyramine

Georgia Hunter
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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1989
   Posted 11/13/2017 4:32 AM (GMT -7)   
This article is one of the best you will ever find concerning the microbiome, individual GI bacteria, and metabolic homeostasis. It's a tough read but has a lot of information. It even touches on what I said awhile back where I took some heat about liver disease. Some will see it as a good article, I see it as 115 good articles because it has 114 references. I still haven't gotten through all of them. This article also talks about which bacteria help prevent translocation and stop leaky gut. I'd post the entire article if I knew how.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521691813000711

As it pertains to your situation, you have altered your GI flora by pulsing and this has changed your microbiome. This alters not only bacterial levels but also leptin and energy metabolism.

In your situation, I'd be taking multiple Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium probiotics making sure I had L. rhamnosus and L paracasei. VSL#3 has the paracasei but not the rhamnosus. I'd also supplement with a multivitamin. I do not like many of the OTC multivitamins as many of them have 2mg of Copper. One milligram or less would be preferred. All-in-One is my favorite but there are others that are good.

The bacteria left in your GI tract are most likely absorbing much of your nutrient content pertaining to trace minerals and metals. Your body may be deficient of many of these and the result is to increase your hunger. Replacing trace minerals and good metals should be your focus as well. A good multivitamin will have many of these. Eat more cellulose or fiber containing foods. That will help increase the Bifidobacterium levels.

The Dude Abides
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 396
   Posted 11/13/2017 8:38 AM (GMT -7)   
Georgia Hunter said...
In your situation, I'd be taking multiple Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium probiotics making sure I had L. rhamnosus and L paracasei. VSL#3 has the paracasei but not the rhamnosus. I'd also supplement with a multivitamin. I do not like many of the OTC multivitamins as many of them have 2mg of Copper. One milligram or less would be preferred. All-in-One is my favorite but there are others that are good.


Based on a previous post by Georgia Hunter, I believe the "All-in-One" multi-vitamin/-mineral to which he refers is the following:

www.holisticheal.com/all-in-one-multi-vitamin-mineral-120-capsules.html

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 202
   Posted 11/13/2017 3:44 PM (GMT -7)   
https://www.nemechekconsultativemedicine.com/blog/excess-stomach-acid-mimics-hunger/comment-page-2/#comments

thank you for the all the ideas, but this article pretty much describes my situation to th T...points to SIBO causing stomach to excess acid....now how do i deal with SIBO

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 6049
   Posted 11/13/2017 5:04 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi dbwilco-

Thanks for posting that article - pretty interesting.

For the benefit of others who might have more complex issues than you, I want to mention that it misses a few things - SIBO is one of those "catch-all" diagnoses for a group of symptoms ---it does not, however, help you understand the underlying cause, which can be one or multiple other problems, not just bacteria or spices in the lower intestines signaling through the vagus nerve. And the sx described in the article and those you described are also caused by other triggers than too much stomach acid.

It also misses the yeast/fungal overgrowth component of those symptoms, its association with alcoholism and its impact on the ANS.

However, if you feel this is something you might want to explore, the "how" is right there in the article - eat fewer simple carbs. Thankfully, it's pretty straightforward. You shoule be able to identify improvements right away.

But if you don't, you'll still probably get some benefit of a lower-carb diet and you can keep exploring. I think in most cases SIBO sx are far more complicated than this, but you could be a very simple case--ESPECIALLY if you are experiencing only increased hunger. The best way to find out is to just try a more restricted diet and see how it goes!

-p
LYME FORUM MODERATOR

Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '98; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses, GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many supps; cholestyramine

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 202
   Posted 11/13/2017 5:13 PM (GMT -7)   
well i am eating fewer carbs as that is important whether it be sibo,candida or something else....

but another thing....

lyme can cause delayed stomach emptying in itself, right? the article points to sibo as a possible cause of this phenomena, but there are alot of people on this board who have heartburn issues as well, which would also play in...

the conundrum is whether treating lyme and co with abx fixes the delayed stomach emptying issue, or whether it is exarcebated by abx as it is caused by gut imbalance

i know one of my often symptoms is massive belching...the hunger one is new to me...it sucks that not only do we have to have these diseases, we also have to play guessing games

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 6049
   Posted 11/13/2017 5:39 PM (GMT -7)   
Yes - Lyme and bart can cause GI dysfunction - there is a condition called "palsy of the gut", which can do this:
tinyurl.com/y7vlyvxc

But you're right - the sequence of what causes what is very confusing. Is the bacteria affecting ANS, which then causes the SIBO or is there a direct cause from the bacteria, itself? The GI world is not very well understood in western medicine and you probably need to work with someone to figure out where to start if a low-carb diet doesn't help. A functional doc is your best bet.

Likely, your issues are caused by both the imbalance created from the abx AND ANS impact. I would start with a very detailed diary of your daily food/beverage/meds/supplement intake, and your symptoms and overview of how you're feeling.

Unfortunately, you will likely need to take a methodical approach. I would start experimenting with dietary changes, implementing the probiotics GH mentioned, multi-vitamin (although you need to be careful which one you choose - most of the cheaper versions are just that - cheap ingredients that won't do much and note that you could experience some complications with B vitamins so you might try to find one w/out B's).

I would incorporate a good GI binder, etc...

Do everything only one at a time, at least a few days apart and take close notes on your reactions. And then move on to the next component.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 11/13/2017 5:45:16 PM (GMT-7)


Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1989
   Posted 11/14/2017 12:58 AM (GMT -7)   
Good advice Piro.

The article mentions several important things like Dyspepsia. SIBO is what we have been talking about, but dybiosis is a better term. A major portion of Lyme patients have an issue with the ileocecal valve. That is the valve that blocks the small intestine contents from the large intestine. A malfunction in this valve will allow a bacterial regurgitation and cause SIBO. In actuality, it is dysbiosis because the lower colon is affected as well. A hypothesis can be made that a borrelia infection contributes to the malfunctioning of this valve allowing for dysbiosis. It's one of the plausible causes of borrelia induced Lyme Disease and MSIDS.

I do have to disagree with the article. I may have mentioned this before, but I am an expert in archaeology. I minored in anthropology while attending pharmacy school and have been studying it for over 30 years. I am one of the few lithic and ceramic typologists of pre-Columbian artifacts in the Southeast. I know human history and the eating patterns of various cultures dating all the way back to Paleo times. The doctor is incorrect about prehistoric eating patterns. I don't diagnose his patients, he doesn't need to tell me about my specialty. He is wrong on that one. He would be better off discussing the lower caloric intake or the effects of adding fat and protein to a carbohydrate laden diet. Carbs are only the bullet, the gun is protein. We need nitrogen/nitrates in our diet, just not as much as we eat. We need fat in our diet, just not as much as we eat. We need carbs in our diet, just not the type and amount that we eat. It's a cultural thing and I'd be happy to explain it to him. One problem exists though. Physicians won't listen. I had a physician come by my store last week to recommend a B-12 for one of his patients. He was a very nice, older physician, but he just didn't know the specifics of B-12 metabolism and when I tried to explain it to him and change his recommendation, he got out of there as fast as he could. You CAN NOT tell a physician something they don't know. It is impossible.

I have quite a bit of research on protein and fat ingestion and I feel the doctor's article refers more to regular people being sick rather than Lyme patients. Many of us have already altered our diets and don't eat all the junk most Americans eat.
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