For Georgia Hunter - gut dysbiosis

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WalkingbyFaith
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 11/10/2017 7:18 AM (GMT -7)   
Georgia Hunter,

I just saw your response to Mergirl's question. I'd like to understand more about this. You said (in italics):

My Questions are in Bold

"The studies show that less than half of the people that have acquired the borrelia burgdorferi bacteria get Lyme Disease. This means that Lyme could occur from several possible etiologies and certain conditions contribute to the virulence of "Lyme Disease." When studying my condition which involves having Lyme and Babesiosis, I discovered literature that circumstantially supported Lyme Disease simply as a dysbiosis caused by borrelia. It formed a reasonable explanation for severe and persistent neurological Lyme and why treating is so difficult in many people. Yes, borrelia is present and most likely a causative agent, but the pH change in the GI tract altered microvascular blood flow which allowed translocation of normal bacteria from the GI tract into the periphery (synapses, joints, even CNS).

By translocation, are you referring to "leaky gut?" Is there something we can do to counteract this pH change you are referring to? If so, what exactly would that correct - only the pH change? or the act of translocation as well?

The translocation, along with dietary eating patterns of high nitrogen intake, can contribute to dysbiosis and accumulation of too many gram negative anaerobes in the GI tract. In essence, borrelia is so difficult to treat because it makes our immune response fight everything else. It waters it down.

Gram positive bacteria in our GI tract produce bacteriocin and streptocins which are anti-bacterial proteins. This is why our GI tract acts as such a major component of our immune system. A translocation of these bacteria increases these proteins in our periphery and helps us reduce the amount of borrelia. These gram positive bacteria are beneficial in our GI tract but in our periphery, they come at a cost. Yes, they initially reduce oxidative stress, but they also cause complications.

By periphery, am I correct in that your saying if you indeed have "leaky gut," then increasing "good" bacteria in the gut is going to benefit the gut itself but cause problems elsewhere because it is leaking outside the walls of the gut (the periphery)?

Lactobacillus and other gram positive bacteria have been shown to increase growth in the presence of fatty acids, especially in the absence of riboflavin (Vitamin B2). They find plenty of fatty acids in the periphery. (Lineolic acid can suppress their growth and there are some interesting things there.) In the periphery, Lactobacillus can be considered a pathogen and alters lipids through lysosomal degradation. Lysosomal degradation comes from lysosomes and they are acidic organelles inside of our cells that have many functions including detoxifying our cells. Translocation could make detoxing very difficult for some no matter what their genetics show.

Are you saying that IF you have "leaky gut" plus low Vit B2 levels, then taking probiotics is going to cause the probiotic "good" bacteria to multiple in places outside of the GI tract, where it does not belong? That "leaky gut" in and of itself will cause problems with detoxification whether or not the person has any genetic influences affecting their ability to detox effectively?

In a nutshell, are you saying that someone like me who has gut problems and a lot of trouble detoxing most likely has "leaky gut" and taking probiotics are only making my problems worse? Should we stop taking probiotics? How can we close the gap on the leaky gut, if that is what we have? I've been on l-glutamine for 2.5 years now to "protect" me from leaky gut. What's the fix?


I could hypothesize that translocated bacteria can cause a form of temporal gangliosidosis. This needs more study.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 27285
   Posted 11/10/2017 11:00 AM (GMT -7)   
bump for GH to see.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 6073
   Posted 11/10/2017 2:15 PM (GMT -7)   
WbF -

I'm also interested in GH's responses - good questions, too.

I have had leaky gut for at least 2 yrs before I started treating about 4 yrs ago. And have had GI problems my entire life, was born with low 'good' bacteria in the gut (determined through DNA testing) and was born with pyloric stenosis (one of the stomach flaps didn't grow properly). I also had many amalagams growing up and severe yeast/fungal overgrowth. I've had a lifetime of GI problems.

But I healed my leaky gut. I did take probiotics at first but stopped. But I healed my gut pretty well before starting on abx. I did this through foods and healing remedies like aloe vera, bone broth and GI binders and keeping diet restricted. Plus I stayed off abx until this was done.

I think you might need to explore more than L-glutathione.

-p

-p
LYME FORUM MODERATOR

Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '98; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses, GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many supps; cholestyramine

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3841
   Posted 11/10/2017 8:39 PM (GMT -7)   
Leaky gut and gut candida go hand in hand. Like many, I've had both and both are currently under control , now with nothing more than a good diet. Adult acne , which was bad on ABX and stayed like that after ABX, cleared up on diet as my gut got better again. The holidays is the worst time- when friends and family encourage sweets, carbs ect.

There are many good you tube vids on healing leaky gut. I believe D-Limonene also helped gut lining heal as the citrus oil (alkalizing in the gut, not acidic) coats the digestive lining acting as a acid buffer and anti-inflammatory while not changing the acid itself../www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28260017

PH test litmus paper, is available, for testing saliva and urine at many health food places. But there are pros and cons to both acidic and alkalizing levels.

Timing of food / not combining certain foods is also properly is also important. Don't eat fruit after animal protein. Alone, fruit digests faster than meat. So meat first digesting slow will make fruit ferment (gas is proof), grow candida and add to the leaky gut issue. Fruit should never be eaten as desert LOL. Best as a snack.

Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1991
   Posted 11/11/2017 12:10 AM (GMT -7)   
WalkingbyFaith said...


By translocation, are you referring to "leaky gut?" Is there something we can do to counteract this pH change you are referring to? If so, what exactly would that correct - only the pH change? or the act of translocation as well?

By periphery, am I correct in that your saying if you indeed have "leaky gut," then increasing "good" bacteria in the gut is going to benefit the gut itself but cause problems elsewhere because it is leaking outside the walls of the gut (the periphery)?

Are you saying that IF you have "leaky gut" plus low Vit B2 levels, then taking probiotics is going to cause the probiotic "good" bacteria to multiple in places outside of the GI tract, where it does not belong? That "leaky gut" in and of itself will cause problems with detoxification whether or not the person has any genetic influences affecting their ability to detox effectively?

In a nutshell, are you saying that someone like me who has gut problems and a lot of trouble detoxing most likely has "leaky gut" and taking probiotics are only making my problems worse? Should we stop taking probiotics? How can we close the gap on the leaky gut, if that is what we have? I've been on l-glutamine for 2.5 years now to "protect" me from leaky gut. What's the fix?


Astroman makes some great points.

Translocation is often called a leaky gut. The pH change I refer to can often be countered by dietary intake. Sometimes, it takes more depending on what pathogens you are dealing with. Changing what you eat changes not only the pH but alters the ingredients that the bacteria utilize for food and reduces their numbers. More importantly, reducing their numbers coincides to altering bacterial ratios which helps with the dysbiosis.

If you have a leaky gut, probiotics can cause an increase in oxidative stress. The ultimate goal of the body is to retain blood pH and reduce oxidative stress. The body will sometimes do what seems like harmful things to achieve these goals.

IMO, a likely scenario is that you have pathogens in your blood/body and your immune response was causing too much oxidative stress when killing them. The leaky gut occurred to help reduce your peripheral pathogen load. A dysbiosis occurred and now you have problems in both places. Exercise or movement was vital for me. Increasing blood flow to the major ball and socket joints of the hips and shoulders did more than anything. Lifting weights was not required, just increasing blood flow was sufficient to reduce pathogen load. But that would only be half of the issue, the gut dysbiosis needs to be addressed. What pathogens are you dealing with? Like Astro said, fungi are almost always an issue. Studies show saccharomyces species (Florastor) increases immune response against other unwanted fungi like candida.

Yes, I would say many (if not all) on this forum have a leaky gut. Candida and too many gram negative anaerobes are often the problem, but staph or strep could be as well. Eating the correct foods is important as is reducing whatever pathogen(s) started this in the first place.

I unfortunately can't tell you what would work because I don't know. There are a lot of variables in play. For me, I went vegan for a month, juiced for a month, took every supplement known to man seeing what would happen, and now I only sleep 4 or 5 hours a night. I can do more but it is a lot of work and effort. Since I am living "normally," I'm just dealing with it. I don't hurt anymore, I can exercise, heck, I can walk more than 50 yards without having to rest. I'm totally different than I was but I'm also not as good as I once was. My brain is slipping and isn't anything like it was 5 or 10 years ago.

As for you, you have to increase the alkalinity of your GI tract some how. Alkaline foods and D-Limonene may work, I took it for some time. I liked Pectasol-C powder better, but it sure costs a lot more. In your situation, I would be thinking candida and intestinal parasites. They could perpetuate a dysbiosis of the GI tract.

What do you eat and drink?

The Dude Abides
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 396
   Posted 11/11/2017 10:53 AM (GMT -7)   
astroman said...
Leaky gut and gut candida go hand in hand. Like many, I've had both and both are currently under control , now with nothing more than a good diet. Adult acne , which was bad on ABX and stayed like that after ABX, cleared up on diet as my gut got better again. The holidays is the worst time- when friends and family encourage sweets, carbs ect.

There are many good you tube vids on healing leaky gut. I believe D-Limonene also helped gut lining heal as the citrus oil (alkalizing in the gut, not acidic) coats the digestive lining acting as a acid buffer and anti-inflammatory while not changing the acid itself../www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28260017

PH test litmus paper, is available, for testing saliva and urine at many health food places. But there are pros and cons to both acidic and alkalizing levels.

Timing of food / not combining certain foods is also properly is also important. Don't eat fruit after animal protein. Alone, fruit digests faster than meat. So meat first digesting slow will make fruit ferment (gas is proof), grow candida and add to the leaky gut issue. Fruit should never be eaten as desert LOL. Best as a snack.


Hey, astroman. What do you think of this advice?

The Body Cleansing Diet
/www.globalhealingcenter.com/cleansing/body-cleansing-diet.html

In the left column, see "8. Food Combining For a Healthy Body"

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3841
   Posted 11/11/2017 3:31 PM (GMT -7)   
Lots of info, I just skimmed it for now.

Healthy food combing can really help with gut issues, and glucose, seldom mentioned here though. I practiced this during my worst "gut moments" and it helped.

Eating fatty meat with even natural sugar (fruit) can double the blood glucose. Theory is the fat plugs the cell receptors, so sugar stays in the blood, unused. You tube tests on this. I tested my self with food and blood meter- it was true. Drs dont know this- yet.
Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / repairing / fine tuning since then. What an adventure this has been.

Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 1991
   Posted 11/13/2017 4:44 AM (GMT -7)   
A quote from the literature:

L. paracasei F19 supplementation protected rats from ischemia/reperfusion-induced liver injury by
restoring ileal lactobacilli and bifidobacteria numbers and intestinal barrier [58]. Supplementation
with different lactobacilli strains (L. acidophilus NM1; L. rhamnosus ATCC 53103, and L. rhamnosus DSM
6594 þ L. plantarum DSM 9843) [59] or with the combination of L. fermentum and B. catenulatum [60]
prevented bacterial translocation and decreased Enterobacteriaceae in a rat model of acute liver injury.
However, B. animalis increased the bacterial translocation to mesenteric lymph nodes with no effect on
liver damage [59].
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