New Horowitz Protocol

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NicHostetler
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   Posted 11/14/2017 7:04 AM (GMT -7)   
I saw a post on Facebook from Fred Verdult (a Lyme activist) with an interview with Horowitz where he talks about a new antibiotic combo that has shown to be very effective in persistant Lyme.

Rifampin
Dapsone
Doxycycline

Dr. Horowitz said...
To erradicate the actual "Lyme bacteria", (and remember, there are multiple infectious disease bacterias infecting a lyme patient that require different antibiotic combos)...
...renowned Lyme Literate Medical Dr. Richard Horowitz's grant funded research using the antibiotic combinations Doxycycline, Rifampin, and Dapsone, when used together show marked improvement in patients.
This 3 antibiotic combination targets the persistent form of the Lyme bacteria & helped those whose prior antibiotic combo treatments failed. Dapsone also has an antimalarial effect for those like myself with the coinfection Babesia.
Bacteria caused Leprosy, Acne, are successfully treated using Dapsone which has been around a 100 years and has treated other diseases, yet it's highly controversial to use Dapsone or any other long term antibiotic to kill the Lyme Bacteria or a coinfection.


What does everyone think?

This post was shared on Wildcraft Herbs Facebook page if anyone wants to check out the video.

Pirouette
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   Posted 11/14/2017 12:24 PM (GMT -7)   
I've not read much about Dapsone or the trio. Hope others chime in. It's certainly good to have more options but I don't know anyone who has been prescribed the Dapsone. That is probably the primary hurdle.

-p
LYME FORUM MODERATOR

Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '98; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses, GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many supps; cholestyramine

Mustard Seed
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   Posted 11/14/2017 12:32 PM (GMT -7)   
Though I'm not one of his patients, I'm starting this exact protocol tomorrow.

I brought it up to my LLMD after watching this lecture (check out the last 15 minutes or so for information about Dapsone and other antibiotics):

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZu0wEOFVM8

It's a great watch.

Girlie
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   Posted 11/14/2017 12:57 PM (GMT -7)   
Dr J is also prescribing the Dapsone.

A few other "new" meds: Daraprim and one that starts with a P.

I'll look it up and edit with full name - I believe it's a TB med.

Edit - Pyrazinamide
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Lapis_29
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   Posted 11/14/2017 1:13 PM (GMT -7)   
the dapsone is specifically for persistor cells. here is his research on paper on it

horowitz knows his stuff and has tons of experience ACTUALLY TREATING patients, I would trust him above most of the 'lyme experts' out there.


https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/the-use-of-dapsone-as-a-novel-persister-drug-in-the-treatment-of-chroniclyme-diseasepost-treatment-lyme-disease-syndrome-2155-9554-1000345.php?aid=71596&view=mobile

Sheeks175
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   Posted 11/14/2017 1:51 PM (GMT -7)   
People are having very good luck on dapsone. It has similarities or it is a sulfa med, so you have a sulfa sensitivity, proceed with caution. Horowitz says some of his patients can take dapsone, but they can't take Bactrim/ Septra, which is a sulfa med. Dapsone is specifically for persistor cell lyme. There are a few other medications that I know of that work on persistors.

-Dapsone
-Pyrazinamide
-Bactirm/Septra DS
-Liposomal Oil of Oregano - Contains carvacrol which kills persistors
-Daptomycin (IV infusion only)
-Tetracycline

In a test tube, pulsing rocephin works on persistors as well.

Kct
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   Posted 11/14/2017 5:17 PM (GMT -7)   
I was at the Boston ILADS meeting this past weekend. I met with Dr Horowitz and Fred. Yes Dr Horowitz had promising results with his new combination of meds. The point was to treat resistant lyme treated patients. Anicdotaly he had 2 patients that inadvertently overdosed their dapsone by accident, resulting in complete remission of their chronic symptoms. Be aware that these patients had severe side affects which could have been life threatening. I'm not sure you can find his research paper yet, since it is going through the process of publication.

I learned from the Mycotoxin lecture that its just as importantly for resistant Lyme patients is to get worked up for mycotoxin exposure. This was enlightening to me since exposures could be many years old and still impede resolution of lyme as does heavy metal exposure. I just had a urine provoked test that showed moderate lead, Mercury and cadmium. I am doing infrared sauna and neurolyme supplements recommended by Dr Burrascano on the ILADS website and my memory/brain fog is improving ( thank god ). Oh I almost forgot I have a BioCharger NG that I use too.

If you are not addressing the Lyme , metals and mycotoxins you stand a good chance of having a protracted long recovery.

LymeSick 🌟
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   Posted 11/14/2017 5:28 PM (GMT -7)   
I don't think this is his latest research paper, but he did one on dapsone in 2016:


/www.facebook.com/drrichardhorowitz/posts/1017491018339696

Rikky1
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   Posted 11/14/2017 8:00 PM (GMT -7)   
>>horowitz knows his stuff and has tons of experience ACTUALLY TREATING patients, I would trust him above most of the 'lyme experts' out there.

I would trust him or Dr. J in DC. Funny I had a follow up appointment with Dr. J today and we did discuss the above.

He likes using Dapsone and Daraprim (PZA). Dr. J actually led the charge on using PZA on patients a few years back (not Dr. H just so it was clear ;o). His first thought was it can also be used to treat babesia but during trials with his patients it didn't work so back to the Mepron.

Dapsone and PZA are for persister cells but another important benefit they do a good job melting down biofilms. Per Dr. J biofilms are VERY persistent and can take a long time to get rid of (I'm into month 8 and still going).

Note Dapsone is a bit of a different type of sulfa drug I forget what Dr. J said its not quite the same as Bactrim and that's why some folks can take it.

Girlie, Darprim and PZA are the same thing.

Lightlife
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   Posted 11/14/2017 8:33 PM (GMT -7)   
Are persistent cells cysts?

Sheeks175
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   Posted 11/15/2017 12:12 AM (GMT -7)   
Rikky1 said...
>>horowitz knows his stuff and has tons of experience ACTUALLY TREATING patients, I would trust him above most of the 'lyme experts' out there.

I would trust him or Dr. J in DC. Funny I had a follow up appointment with Dr. J today and we did discuss the above.

He likes using Dapsone and Daraprim (PZA). Dr. J actually led the charge on using PZA on patients a few years back (not Dr. H just so it was clear ;o). His first thought was it can also be used to treat babesia but during trials with his patients it didn't work so back to the Mepron.

Dapsone and PZA are for persister cells but another important benefit they do a good job melting down biofilms. Per Dr. J biofilms are VERY persistent and can take a long time to get rid of (I'm into month 8 and still going).

Note Dapsone is a bit of a different type of sulfa drug I forget what Dr. J said its not quite the same as Bactrim and that's why some folks can take it.

Girlie, Darprim and PZA are the same thing.




Daraprim is not the same as PZA - Pyrazinamide. Does Dr. J say Daraprim is a persistor drug? That would be good. 1 more option...

Here is the wiki for Daraprim and the wiki for Pyrazinamide:


/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrimethamine

/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrazinamide

mpost
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   Posted 11/15/2017 1:33 AM (GMT -7)   
Lightlife said...
Are persistent cells cysts?


there is no such thing as cysts. this is a lyme terminology used for decades without any proof of cystic forms at all by almost all LLMDs and patients.

in 2015 some researchers working in Finland have finally looked with an electron microscope at the bug and took pictures in very great detail, in more detail that was ever done. In these pics it was clear Borrelia does not form cysts, something noted by the authors

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339653/

"Here we confirmed for the first time that RBs actually have an intact cell envelope with a peptidoglycan layer (Figs 5 and ​and7),7), indicating that they do not fulfil clearly the definitions of spheroplasts, CWD or encysted forms although there are some modifications in the cell envelope and cell wall architecture. Furthermore, the intact cell envelope of RBs (Fig. 5), similar to the spirochaete, provides evidence for the previous suggestion (Alban et al., 2000) that RBs are not degrading cells. To avoid confusing terminology, we suggest that B. burgdorferi spherical shapes are termed ‘round bodies’ to describe these forms better.".

You realize how bad research is for this disease when you hear 20 years later that nobody has cared to look at the darn bacteria in detail but they all jumped to say "there are cysts involved" then treatment was prescribed to people based on medication that works on bacteria that create encysted forms - that is the nitromidazoles class (tinidazole/metronidazoles), without any proof that actually these kill anything.

We know now they don't , but i continue to see lots of people on the forum that are treated with tindamax & co and ive no idea why this is the case. Maybe these work on coinfections, but they surely dont work on borrelia:

"Nitroaromatic compounds such as metronidazole are prodrugs that are converted into reactive drugs by bacterial nitroreductases. These enzymes are expressed under anaerobic or microaerophilic conditions and target pathogens living in these environments (i.e., Helicobacter pylori, Clostridium difficile, and E. coli). We found that some nitroaromatic compounds, like nitrofurantoin, are effective in killing E. coli persisters (45). However, we did not detect homologs of nitroreductases in the genome of B. burgdorferi. The MIC for nitroaromatic compounds (nitrofurantoin, nitrofurazone, and metronidazole) was too high to make them useful agents for killing B. burgdorferi persisters (data not shown)."
aac.asm.org/content/59/8/4616.full

anyway, this show how terrible this disease is, it does not only leave you with physical sometimes irreversible damage, but the treatments that doctors give u are not tested or proven to work not even in the petri dish ...

mpost
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   Posted 11/15/2017 1:48 AM (GMT -7)   
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339653/bin/000027-f4.jpg
figure b 2 shows what a "cyst" really is, it's a folded bacteria, it folds like a worm inside an expanded outer membrane but it never creates a real hard cyst.

ignorance is what drives this disease since the beginning. doctors ignore it, patients ignore the terminology and their own symptoms, the state says the disease does not exist and the immune system does not see the pathogen. HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT, is a very good term for this ...

we all live in a swarm of false terms and notions here, drugs and treatments that are not proven, information that we pass back and forth to others. I don't blame anyone because i am doing the same thing, im just complaining about how bad the research situation with this disease is. nobody looked carefully and studied the bacteria under microscope for 30 years since it was found , yet there are 330000 people that get sick in US alone, every year.

maybe we as human species deserve what it's going to happen with our planet. we are just too stupid ...

Girlie
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   Posted 11/15/2017 2:04 AM (GMT -7)   
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132871/

"Doxycycline reduced spirochetal structures ∼90% but increased the number of round body forms about twofold. Amoxicillin reduced spirochetal forms by ∼85%–90% and round body forms by ∼68%, while treatment with metronidazole led to reduction of spirochetal structures by ∼90% and round body forms by ∼80%. Tigecycline and tinidazole treatment reduced both spirochetal and round body forms by ∼80%–90%. When quantitative effects on biofilm-like colonies were evaluated, the five antibiotics reduced formation of these colonies by only 30%–55%. In terms of qualitative effects, only tinidazole reduced viable organisms by ∼90%. Following treatment with the other antibiotics, viable organisms were detected in 70%–85% of the biofilm-like colonies."
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 11/15/2017 2:20:28 AM (GMT-7)


mpost
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   Posted 11/15/2017 2:50 AM (GMT -7)   
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117207


"Previous studies showed that tinidazole, metronidazole, and tigecycline were more active against B. burgdorferi round body and microcolonies than doxycycline and amoxicillin, but they could not completely kill the microcolonies even at high concentrations of antibiotics [24], indicating the limited activity of these individual antibiotics against B. burgdorferi persisters. Although tigecycline was the most active antibiotic against the round body form compared with tinidazole and metronidazole in that study [24], we found that by itself tigecycline was not very effective at killing the biofilm-like microcolonies (Table 2)."

NicHostetler
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   Posted 11/15/2017 6:56 AM (GMT -7)   
Alright so - I was planning on buying and starting Mepron along with Zithromax this weekend.

Before I do that, should I discuss this combo with my doctor to see if maybe I should just do this instead?

That way I would be hitting both babesia and bart (I have never taken anything to hit these besides herbs.)

I don't do well with bactrum (makes me nauseous) so I am a little worried about Dapsone.
Very sick starting around 07/2016
Started treatment 03/2017
Bixain & Cefdinir - 3 months - plateaued
Then Biaxin & Minocycline - 3 months - did not improve
Currently taking:
Tinidazole - 500MG 2x a day
Nystatin
Cats Claw - 20 drops 2x a day
Gou Teng - 30 drops 2x a day
Cryptolepis - 20 drops 2x a day
Japanese Knotweed - 30 drops 2x a day

Rikky1
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   Posted 11/15/2017 7:15 AM (GMT -7)   
thanks Sheeks mixed up my acronyms. Dr. J was discussing Daraprim he just calls it Pyrimethamine.

Yes Dapsone and Daraprim are both considered to hit persister forms (whatever we're calling them these days)

mpost you said "We know now they don't , but i continue to see lots of people on the forum that are treated with tindamax & co"

i'm not sure what tinidazole is killing but its definitely killing something as its a potent anti-protozoan so because we "react" to it via herxing it continues to be used maybe not for the core intended purpose but for others.

Mustard Seed
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   Posted 11/15/2017 10:17 AM (GMT -7)   
Tindamax and Flagyl have, anecdotally, been used with some success by LLMD's, so I think that's why they continue to be prescribed.

That being said, as far as I'm aware, there's no single commercially available medication that even comes close to complete round body eradication on it's own. Daptomycin is one of the best, but still doesn't completely eradicate on it's own:

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4876775/

Currently, the most effective way to eliminate persisters in vivo is Doxycycline + Daptomycin + Ceftin OR Doxycycline + Daptomycin + Cefoperazone.

Daptomycin is only available through IV, and I'm fairly confident it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. The former of these two combinations was used as the control group in a recent study looking at Dapsone (and other Sulfa medications) effectiveness:

www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/6/1/10

Dapsone can reduce viable persister cells to 84%, but that increases to 65% when you combine Dapsone, Rifampin, and Ceftin. It becomes even more effective if you add a fourth antibiotic like minocycline or azithromycin. This is still not close to the 27% viable cells seen in the Daptomycin + Doxycycline + Ceftin control.

So Dapsone on it's own isn't that great, but there does seem to be some credence to combining it with other antibiotics.

Addressing these persisters seems to be where a lot of the research is at right now, and it seems like a lot of doctors/researchers are moving away from single "cyst-busting" medications, and towards combinations of medications that show some synergy with each other when it comes to persister eradication.

Post Edited (Mustard Seed) : 11/15/2017 10:20:21 AM (GMT-7)


mpost
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   Posted 11/15/2017 10:53 AM (GMT -7)   
i was on hi dose tindamax for 5-6 months and i have seen little help from it. was taking 1500mg a day. it has a hi mic so u need hi doses, maybe 3000mg or more to have an effect. however i dont know if you can easily find a dr to risk prescribing that high of a dose to you since it is way higher than what is recommended as safe for the drug. i know a person that used >3000 and "cured" herself she used little else besides tindamax.

i dont think you can kill the bug with antibioics as soon as it gets to tertiary / late stage. we need a different approach more like supressing its growth that targets something very borrelia specific. it should not be hard since borrelia is such weird and unique bacteria among other species. it has all sorts of "personal effects" that can be used against itself.

Girlie
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   Posted 11/15/2017 11:34 AM (GMT -7)   
mpost said...
i was on hi dose tindamax for 5-6 months and i have seen little help from it. was taking 1500mg a day. it has a hi mic so u need hi doses, maybe 3000mg or more to have an effect. however i dont know if you can easily find a dr to risk prescribing that high of a dose to you since it is way higher than what is recommended as safe for the drug. i know a person that used >3000 and "cured" herself she used little else besides tindamax.

i dont think you can kill the bug with antibioics as soon as it gets to tertiary / late stage. we need a different approach more like supressing its growth that targets something very borrelia specific. it should not be hard since borrelia is such weird and unique bacteria among other species. it has all sorts of "personal effects" that can be used against itself.


Maybe not all the time. But, people are killing the bugs with antibiotics and healing...

Were you taking Tindamax on it's own? It's known now that mono therapy isn't effective.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Mustard Seed
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   Posted 11/15/2017 11:45 AM (GMT -7)   
You're right Girlie. People definitely do get better.

The most encouraging thing we can come to realize is that you don't need to kill 100% of the bacteria to heal. Healing is simply feeling better, which often occurs when the bacterial load is decreased enough that your immune system is somewhat normal, you're not getting overloaded with toxins, you don't have cascading cytokine effects, etc.

How do we know this? Well, reading stuff on PubMed or Google Scholar you start to realize just how resistant Lyme really is. If we can't 100% eradicate it in vivo with a combination of 3 or 4 antibiotics, what chance to we have to eliminate all of the bacteria in our bodies? Pretty much zero. I'm convicned that people who recover from chronic Lyme do not eliminate the infection entirely.

So while monotherapy isn't the most effective, it might be "enough" for some people.

Lapis_29
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   Posted 11/15/2017 11:52 AM (GMT -7)   
Kct said...


I learned from the Mycotoxin lecture that its just as importantly for resistant Lyme patients is to get worked up for mycotoxin exposure. This was enlightening to me since exposures could be many years old and still impede resolution of lyme as does heavy metal exposure. I just had a urine provoked test that showed moderate lead, Mercury and cadmium. I am doing infrared sauna and neurolyme supplements recommended by Dr Burrascano on the ILADS website and my memory/brain fog is improving ( thank god ). Oh I almost forgot I have a BioCharger NG that I use too.

If you are not addressing the Lyme , metals and mycotoxins you stand a good chance of having a protracted long recovery.


interesting, what does Dr. H say to do about mycotoxins? does he just recommend theusual shoemaker stuff or are there other things he suggests?

WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 11/15/2017 1:07 PM (GMT -7)   
Lapis_29 said...
Kct said...


I learned from the Mycotoxin lecture that its just as importantly for resistant Lyme patients is to get worked up for mycotoxin exposure. This was enlightening to me since exposures could be many years old and still impede resolution of lyme as does heavy metal exposure. I just had a urine provoked test that showed moderate lead, Mercury and cadmium. I am doing infrared sauna and neurolyme supplements recommended by Dr Burrascano on the ILADS website and my memory/brain fog is improving ( thank god ). Oh I almost forgot I have a BioCharger NG that I use too.

If you are not addressing the Lyme , metals and mycotoxins you stand a good chance of having a protracted long recovery.


interesting, what does Dr. H say to do about mycotoxins? does he just recommend theusual shoemaker stuff or are there other things he suggests?


I'd like to know what Dr H says to do about mycotoxins, too. The Shoemaker protocol can be difficult for some. I couldn't tolerate the Cholestyramine, presumably because I had untreated Lyme in the picture.

I'd like to know if anyone has had success treating Mycotoxins with something other than Shoemaker's protocol.

(For those who are not fully knowledgeable of the Shoemaker protocol, it is very complex, methodical, involves about 12 sequential steps each addressed with pharma drugs. For those who can't tolerate the drugs due to side effects or allergic reactions to the drugs, he offers no natural alternatives. It's his way or the highway. While he does acknowledge Lyme, his protocol does not address coinfections, heavy metals, methylation or other biotransformation pathway issues).

k07
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   Posted 11/15/2017 2:01 PM (GMT -7)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
Lapis_29 said...
Kct said...


I learned from the Mycotoxin lecture that its just as importantly for resistant Lyme patients is to get worked up for mycotoxin exposure. This was enlightening to me since exposures could be many years old and still impede resolution of lyme as does heavy metal exposure. I just had a urine provoked test that showed moderate lead, Mercury and cadmium. I am doing infrared sauna and neurolyme supplements recommended by Dr Burrascano on the ILADS website and my memory/brain fog is improving ( thank god ). Oh I almost forgot I have a BioCharger NG that I use too.

If you are not addressing the Lyme , metals and mycotoxins you stand a good chance of having a protracted long recovery.


interesting, what does Dr. H say to do about mycotoxins? does he just recommend theusual shoemaker stuff or are there other things he suggests?


I'd like to know what Dr H says to do about mycotoxins, too. The Shoemaker protocol can be difficult for some. I couldn't tolerate the Cholestyramine, presumably because I had untreated Lyme in the picture.

I'd like to know if anyone has had success treating Mycotoxins with something other than Shoemaker's protocol.

(For those who are not fully knowledgeable of the Shoemaker protocol, it is very complex, methodical, involves about 12 sequential steps each addressed with pharma drugs. For those who can't tolerate the drugs due to side effects or allergic reactions to the drugs, he offers no natural alternatives. It's his way or the highway. While he does acknowledge Lyme, his protocol does not address coinfections, heavy metals, methylation or other biotransformation pathway issues).


I see Dr H and he does treat for mycotoxin but does not follow Shoemaker exactly (only did some of labs and does not do the 12 steps). He put me on welchol (not csm) but it didn’t do anything. I get much more benefit from modified citrus pectin. He also likes liposomal glut, nac, ala.

I recently saw a local doc and he ran the shoemaker labs that I’ve never had done. Also tested me for MARCoNs. I think this doc may order neuroquant mri too.

I actually don’t think I have mold illness but biotoxin illness due to lyme.

JohnB2
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   Posted 11/22/2017 10:43 AM (GMT -7)   
Hello,

This debate about cysts is reminscent of Lymenet Europe and the professional naysayers arguing with
Dr. MacDonald. Dr. Lida Mattman, who Dr. MacDonald referred to as our hero, clearly defines borrelia cysts as L-bodies - L-forms.

L-form scientists find the verbage "cysts" by lymees amusing. As I had mentioned before, one of the top L-form scientists who corresponded with me for a while and would give me feedback on my videos stated:

"These large morphological structures are common in L-forms; they are observed frequently and also, they are very varied. In your case, considering the given diagnosis, it is most likely that it is borrelia large L-bodies, or as you refer to them – “borrelia cysts”

Clearly her quotation marks around borrelia cysts must cause a reaction - since she is an L-form scientist. She previously watched some of my video and stated:

- " Indeed, I am worried to say that there’s an abundance of L-forms, proliferating and exhibiting all possible morphological variations".
- "One way or another, the large filamentous and spherical bodies and the positive DNA test for Borrelia , is very alarming".

-"Otherwise, I am definitely of the opinion that all people possess blood microbiota of L-forms, which exist in the blood as small granular forms, in limited quantities. In some bacterial diseases, however, as is the case with Lyme diseases, the pathogens can transform in L-forms and exist together within normal microbiota but they can revert and thus cause a reactivation of the infection. It is very unfortunate that inhibiting L-forms with pharmaceuticals is very difficult".

And not only can they cause reactivation constantly, as Dr. MacDonald demonstrated, they can invade neurons and other human cells causing cell death.

Dr. Ying Zhang watched some of my video and did not say " How silly for you to call them cysts or L-forms - there is no such thing" He stated - "Thank you John for the interesting videos showing variant forms (L-form, cyst form, biofilm) of Borrelia. I believe they exist in vitro and in vivo, and we need to develop more effective treatment for such forms".

With the reverence for Dr. Mattman and MacDonald by lyme aficionados, I am surprised that so few people have read Stealth Pathogen. As we who do microscopy of borrelia know, scientific blood studies are very lacking. BSK culture results in plasmid loss of borrelia - we knew this from the beginning and many scientists have stated this. Thus, the plasmid-dropped borrelia lose virulence and morphological abillity as some of their unique ORF's are lost. Dr, Mattman did not have this problem as much with her culture - but it is all but gone and not used today.

One of the main setbacks in understanding borrelia L-forms is the conception that a "cyst" is formed by one spirochete. Remember a granule can revert to a spirochete, so it follows that a spirochete can encyst into a granule - and a small one at that. These are extremely hearty as Dr. Sapi has told us, but they are nothing compared to a borrelia L-form, aka L-body, AKA, cyst.

An L-body of borrelia is made up of aggregates of borrelia. My site has many examples of this - spirochetes in different stages forming L-bodies. Or even massive aggregates spewing out L-bodies.
I assure you that if you watched a bunch of my videos, you would see how diverse the L-body formation is. The only thread I was on before on this site, people watched some of a video and stated that they could not see any spirochetes. Since then, one of the largest chronic disorder websites had an article posting my video of what spirochetes look like under a microscope. I am not seeking attention by saying this, but some microscopic borrelia activists seem to have not thoroughly read Dr. Mattman, and do not understand borrelia l-forms. I have spent many hours going through all the science I could find, and just happen to have a situation where the amounts of forms in my family blood in even one drop is unbelievable, resulting in incredible amounts of aggregation and morphology. Maybe this is due to B. Miyamotoi in addition to Bb, but borrelia is borrelia.

My wife can have antibiotics in her blood and thousands of spirochetes forming aggregates and incredible number of giant large bodies. The Mattman long forms are always there, sometimes 10+ in every drop. These simple cysts in these BSK studies are not the extent of borrelia L-form abilities. My site also demonstrates numerous types of cyst or biofilm formation, with a bubble-like form being produced like a bubble machine from the aggregate, a form where numerous spirochetes enjoin around members of the aggregate to form a "cyst", or an aggregate of spirochetes forming a corpus that may end up an L-form or biofilm. And unlike a biofilm, which has openings in the water channel structure where Stevia, or something else can get in, the L-form residual cell wall is a great defense. As Dr. Mattman demonstrated in Stealth Pathogen, and my site has in hundreds of examples. some of the members of the L-body aggregate form long, spirochetal-shaped morphologies within the L-body. These often protrude outside the residual cell wall into the blood or body, and can be used to farm nutrients and then go back into the L-body community. Dr. MacDonald took a frozen brain section after a year, and the L-body reverted back to spirochetes. Also Drs. Mysterud and Laane stated that "Our experiments show that virtually all the bacteria change into the cystic form in the course of just one hour. We can then expose them to almost any antibiotic medication, but nothing destroy these.

I am starting to think that most or all of the in-vitro BSK experiments of successful abx or natural remedies getting rid of biofilms have may not have much of a correlation with borrelia in vivo. People on this site have tried everything it seems like for years, yet here they are still trying things. This is why microscopy is so vital - as many are just guessing without microscopy that their remedy ABC or D has "gotten rid of those cysts or spirochetes".

Also the notion that borrelia do not form L-forms is absolutely incorrect. Most L-forms are not cell-wall deficient but can alter their residual cell walls to varying degrees easily. Dr. Mattman descibes this numerous times in Stealth Pathogen, and as noted earlier Dr. Zhang stated he believes in these forms including L-forms. L-forms can have a small, residual amount of peptidoglycan, or can have proteins that can bypass a need for PG. People really need to study the L-form scientific literature. Even wimpy bacteria have L-forms. Are we to believe that the mighty borrelia cannot form them? Dr. MacDonald and many others taught that borrelia have L-forms. His analysis of some of my early videos he stated, directed him towards L-forms. And those videos were the very first ones I did and nothing close to the elaborate L-forms I catch now with acridine orange. I think the lyme forum community needs to think outside the forum box and read more science.

Post Edited (JohnB2) : 11/22/2017 11:26:18 AM (GMT-7)

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