horowitz and culture

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gfields
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   Posted 12/12/2017 8:25 PM (GMT -6)   
In Horowitz's new book, he talks about culturing spirochetes as being the gold standard of proof that you have lyme disease. He says even the CDC recognizes culture as official proof of lyme infection. Has anyone done this? Who do you go through to get a culture? How does culturing even work? Do you just need a drop of blood and petri dish?

Girlie
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   Posted 12/12/2017 9:07 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't know where - which Lab you'd go to for this.

It sounds similar to the Galaxy Lab Bartonella test.
They grow a culture to detectable levels to be identified via pcr technology
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 12/12/2017 7:10:16 PM (GMT-7)


goshawk
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   Posted 12/12/2017 9:23 PM (GMT -6)   
You would need the right kind of media in the dish.

goshawk
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   Posted 12/12/2017 9:26 PM (GMT -6)   
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/analytical-chromatography/microbiology/microbiology-products.html?TablePage=112138019




It would probably have to be incubated


Sorry I cant figure out how to make it a link.

Post Edited (goshawk) : 12/12/2017 7:29:48 PM (GMT-7)


k07
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   Posted 12/12/2017 10:43 PM (GMT -6)   
I think the most well known lyme culture test is through Advanced Labs.

www.advanced-lab.com/spirochete.php

1000Daisies
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   Posted 12/13/2017 2:12 AM (GMT -6)   
We have done Advanced Labs for all four of us. My kids were positive right away. Mine came back positive only after a long extended culture, which my doc says that I likely have a low load or it is good at hiding for me. Fwiw, I dont have many symptoms at all for Lyme disease, and I have not been nearly as sick as my kids.

Now that Kid#1 is doing well, I would love to retest him to see what it shows. Simply because I am very analytical and would love to see what the test results show since he is been well now. Sadly, we dont have the money to test for something like this that is nonessential for us.
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 12/13/2017 8:25 AM (GMT -6)   
A positive culture would be hard to argue with assuming the lab thats culturing them follows proper sterile technique to avoid cross contamination. That said, there is a reason culture is not routinely used for Lyme. Partly because it's not that sensitive. Particularly in the post-dissemination phase. In fact this has been a big part of the Lyme controversy. Many ID's and chronic Lyme deniers don't seem to understand that you need metabolically active organisms if you want to grow them on culture. Hence culture negativity after treatment gives rise to the delusion that the patient is cured when in reality spirochetes are driven into a non-dividing state (persister cell). On top of that you have to consider that Lyme has a much higher affinity for deep tissue than it does for the blood making it hard to obtain proper samples for culture.

"do you just need a drop of blood and a petri dish".

- No. As I pointed out, blood probably isn't the best sample to use for disseminated Lyme. And culture mediums for Lyme are highly specific. The most popular one is BSK-H. Then you would probably need to incubate it at a certain temperature (just look up a few research papers that use BSK-H and read the protocol). That said, if you have the money to spend I'm not saying it's a lost cause. It could be an interesting project. But if you're any sort of budget I don't think it'd be where I put my money

1000Daisies
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   Posted 12/13/2017 12:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Psi - I love reading your posts. So knowledgable and informative! I always appreciate your posts. smile

But for this type of testing, I've been told that numerous times on this board that this isn't the best way to test for the lyme spirochetes because it's not in the blood very often. But yet, we read so many personal accounts of people doing dark field microscopy and finding them in their blood (yes, perhaps, some of these may be inaccurate, but there are just so many of these people who are confident they are seeing them in the blood). And yet, when I tested all four of us through Advanced Labs, we were all positive. (Again, mine was only positive after an extended culture, and coincidentally, I have the least symptoms.)

So, I really question whether it's not in the blood as much as previously thought or as we are being told.

I agree that a negative, like other tests, is not confirmative that you don't have lyme disease. (double negative?)

I would soooo love to retest Kid#1 from an analytical perspective to see how he tests now that he's been well for several months. Alas, it's not where I can put my money right now. sad
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

gfields
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   Posted 12/15/2017 7:06 AM (GMT -6)   
1000daisies - How much does a culture cost through Advanced Labs? This sounds interesting. I might have it performed.

LymeSick 🌟
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 12/15/2017 8:48 AM (GMT -6)   
Hey gfields, I am interested in this too, I found some information here:

What is the cost for the test, and how may I pay for it?

There are several test options available for the Spirochete/Borrelia Culture. A more complete description of test options can be found here. The test prices are as follows:

Basic Borrelia Culture $595
Extended Culture Add-On $150
Monoclonal Antibody Add-On $300

www.advanced-lab.com/faq.php

cr3ativegirl
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   Posted 12/15/2017 10:19 AM (GMT -6)   
1000daisies - you could get kids checked via electro-dermal screening, assuming you could find a qualified practitioner. My last scan showed it not registering anymore, so it's under control theoretically. It also has been great to track the co-infections plus she found molds, etc, which validated certain treatment protocols. Saved a lot of guessing as far as treatment goes. It think its why my LLMD has such a high success rate. He sends every patient to get EDS screened.
Oct 2015 Dx Lyme, Candida, Mold, Toxic Metals, multiple co-infections
Jan 2016 Minocycline pulse/ Nystatin, Flucanizole
Feb 2016 LDI for Mold, Lyme, EBV, Added Tinidozole, Flucanizole
Sept 2016 Switched to Buhner herbs. @ 90%
January 2017 Plaquenil for Babesia @95%
Feb 2017 Dx Mucor/Mycoplasma in Nervous system.
Oct 2017 Dx Bartonella - @95%

gfields
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   Posted 12/15/2017 5:41 PM (GMT -6)   
That's actually cheaper than Igenex testing. I wonder why more LLMDs don't go the culture route? Maybe it's less likely to receive a positive result, because you're not guaranteed to have spirochetes in a drop of blood, whereas antibodies are probably ubiquitous in the blood?

gfields
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   Posted 12/15/2017 5:53 PM (GMT -6)   
Here is some information on making your own spirochete culture:
http://www.medsci.org/v10p0362.htm

Girlie
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   Posted 12/15/2017 8:12 PM (GMT -6)   
gfields said...
That's actually cheaper than Igenex testing. I wonder why more LLMDs don't go the culture route? Maybe it's less likely to receive a positive result, because you're not guaranteed to have spirochetes in a drop of blood, whereas antibodies are probably ubiquitous in the blood?


It's like the PCR vs WB.

The PCR - a positive is great...you know you've got lyme in your blood. BUT, that relatively small sample may not have any in it...doesn't mean you don't have it...just not in that sample.

Whereas the WB that doesn't matter.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

1000Daisies
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Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2448
   Posted 12/16/2017 11:16 AM (GMT -6)   
gfields said...
That's actually cheaper than Igenex testing. I wonder why more LLMDs don't go the culture route? Maybe it's less likely to receive a positive result, because you're not guaranteed to have spirochetes in a drop of blood, whereas antibodies are probably ubiquitous in the blood?


FWIW - Our functional medicine MD has used both Igenex and Advanced Labs for many years now.

That is a common argument against this type of testing.
But as I've said before, I really challenge this type of thinking. It has been very common on this board and some other places. But yet, numerous people are seeing it in their blood through dark field microscopy. Granted, there could be a little bit of human error, but there are far too many people claiming this to be ignored. Plus, like I said before, my kids were all positive right away (no extended culture). I was positive with an extended culture (I don't have much for symptoms for lyme). So, if it's so difficult to test in blood like this, then why we were all so easily positive then? All four of us? Hmmmm....

I think it's a better test than what it gets credit for (just my opinion).

(All three of my kids also tested through Igenex, but I retested through Advanced Labs because I needed more confirmation than what Igenex could provide at the time. For me, I didn't want to pay for both so I went straight to Advanced Labs testing for myself. At some point, I'd like to test with DNA Connexions for us too, but I just don't have the money/justification for doing so at this time.)
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

1000Daisies
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Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2448
   Posted 12/16/2017 11:22 AM (GMT -6)   
cr3ativegirl said...
1000daisies - you could get kids checked via electro-dermal screening, assuming you could find a qualified practitioner. My last scan showed it not registering anymore, so it's under control theoretically. It also has been great to track the co-infections plus she found molds, etc, which validated certain treatment protocols. Saved a lot of guessing as far as treatment goes. It think its why my LLMD has such a high success rate. He sends every patient to get EDS screened.

Thanks for the tip. I appreciate it. smile

We have not done that type of testing yet, but it sounds similiar to some other things we have done. We have done numerous muscle testing (few practitioners), as well as FCT (which very few people on this board have apparently tried). We tried them for years. And truth be told, it just sent us in circles with no real healing or help. I have posted about my FCT experience (how eventually I got a lab to contradict what he was telling me, as I had strong reason to not trust it anymore). And I really did like the muscle testing practitioner we saw the most, although he was quirky. He sure knew a lot about how the body works. But he just sent us in circles with no real healing. I gave it a fair trial (years).

I have no doubt that it can and does help some people. I just don't believe we were one of them and no longer pursue this. I wish I was wrong. But our experience wasn't helpful/healing. sad
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

Kct
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2016
Total Posts : 197
   Posted 12/16/2017 1:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Culture proven is rare. It usually requires CSF fluid. I was just at the ILADS conference and that was not emphasized at all in the diagnostic presentations. Havent heard anything about + blood cultures. As a PA for 35 years clinically the blood culture is a low yield test like PCR which I think is at best 30% ? correct me if Im wrong. It remains a clinical diagnosis consider yourself lucky if you get all the bands from Igenex or a +PCR like I had

gfields
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   Posted 12/16/2017 2:23 PM (GMT -6)   
Do they have to determine whether it's a lyme spirochete to make a positive diagnosis (ie - DNA testing)? Or, as long as it's a spirochete, they consider it to be lyme. Or, maybe the medium that they put it in only allows for lyme to grow, and therefore it has to be a lyme spirochete.

Kct
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Date Joined May 2016
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   Posted 12/23/2017 1:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Timing of PCR of 1-2 weeks on, then off abx increases the sensitivity because of the die off and rebound activity of the spirochete in the blood stream. Thats how my PCR became + and it was by accident.

gfields
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Date Joined Oct 2015
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   Posted 1/3/2018 6:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi JohnB2, Do you think the culture from Advanced Labs is a good one?

A lot of this information is over my head.

Missouri
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 367
   Posted 1/4/2018 11:36 AM (GMT -6)   
Love the Post!

I am curious your opinions as to why the cabal is doing what they are doing.

Its obvious they are trying to control all aspects of the disease, but why?

Are they trying to profit off current test kits, vaccines, or patents?

Are they trying to save face from the decades of perpetuating bad info?

What is their end game here?

I wonder if they actually believe some of their own bulls**t.

Why can't these alternate science studies make it into the hands of main street GP's?

gfields
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   Posted 1/4/2018 8:11 PM (GMT -6)   
I think they have financial interests here. They get paid off by the insurance companies. I think that's what the current class action lawsuit is about. Conflict of interest for all these lyme doctors. I'm not sure you can really call them doctors. They're more like fraudsters.

gfields
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   Posted 2/21/2018 9:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Concerns Regarding a New Culture Method for Borrelia burgdorferi Not Approved for the Diagnosis of Lyme Disease:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6315a4.htm?s_cid=mm6315a4_w

In this article, the CDC gives no justification for why they do not approve of the New Culture Method. They essentially say, "We're the CDC and we say so."

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 2/22/2018 12:03 AM (GMT -6)   
gfields said...
Concerns Regarding a New Culture Method for Borrelia burgdorferi Not Approved for the Diagnosis of Lyme Disease:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6315a4.htm?s_cid=mm6315a4_w

In this article, the CDC gives no justification for why they do not approve of the New Culture Method. They essentially say, "We're the CDC and we say so."


Basically stating contamination may have skewed research results. I personally don't get it. Labs should be using sterile technique. Why should this be any more suspicious than any other clinical culture procedure? I understand they want it FDA approved... both agencies are on my sh**list this week though
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