Artimissan Annua ?

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Woodduck12
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 156
   Posted 12/16/2017 5:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Just wondering how much Art is toxic? I am taking maybe two full doppers full 2x a day for the past three days. I am well under 1000 mg. 176 mg per dopper full of tinacture. just wondering should I be concerned with studies saying it is nuero toxic and cause heart problems. Is that just higher doses?


I am also taking 1 tsp of the following powders.
cats claw
olive leaf
pau d arco
x 2 a day.

1/4
of clove
blck wallnut hull powders.

These are taking in between the art.

Thanks

Woodduck12
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 156
   Posted 12/16/2017 5:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Note I am a big guy 6 ft 4 and well over 300

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 12/16/2017 5:52 PM (GMT -6)   
Well here is what I know.

Don't take it with grapefruit juice.

It may also interact with calcium channel blockers.

You should google side effects and if you feel you have the slightest one, stop the herb.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/16/2017 6:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Woodduck - Are you taking Artemisinin? Or Artemisia Annua?


I'm thinking it's the whole herb Artemisia Annua - because I haven't seen Artemisinin in a tincture before.

I didn't know you can't take it with grapefruit juice.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Woodduck12
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 156
   Posted 12/16/2017 6:46 PM (GMT -6)   
herb pharm sells a tinacture. It is Art annua

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 12/16/2017 7:13 PM (GMT -6)   
Did your LLMD tell you to take this herb?

Buhner says on page 386. Healing Lyme, 2nd Ed, that very high doses (5000 mg day of artemissinim for three days) have caused liver inflammation, which corrects upon stopping the supplement.

I have not taken this herb. Any herb that mentions the heart I stay away from because lyme gave me such heart symptoms.

You should read what Buhner says about this herb and how to take it.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/16/2017 7:42 PM (GMT -6)   
PeteZa said...
Did your LLMD tell you to take this herb?

Buhner says on page 386. Healing Lyme, 2nd Ed, that very high doses (5000 mg day of artemissinim for three days) have caused liver inflammation, which corrects upon stopping the supplement.

I have not taken this herb. Any herb that mentions the heart I stay away from because lyme gave me such heart symptoms.

You should read what Buhner says about this herb and how to take it.


That is referring to artemisinin not Artemisia Annua.

Woodduck is taking Artemisia Annua.

I don't know anyone who has taken 5000 mg per day of Artemisinin. Yikes!

Buhner now recommends Artemisinin instead of Artemisia Annua.(whole herb)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1353
   Posted 12/16/2017 8:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie, any chance you remember the details of what you read about it? That seems very uncharacteristic of Buhner and online it says he recommends neither which is sort of what I remember from reading his books

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/16/2017 9:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
Girlie, any chance you remember the details of what you read about it? That seems very uncharacteristic of Buhner and online it says he recommends neither which is sort of what I remember from reading his books


Problem is - he has changed his mind a few times...the last I heard was when cd3764 said in his new Babesia book he now recommends Artemisinin.

Do you, by chance have his new Babs book to check? I don't - I just have the bartonella one.

I'll see if I can find the thread by doing a search.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/16/2017 9:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
Girlie, any chance you remember the details of what you read about it? That seems very uncharacteristic of Buhner and online it says he recommends neither which is sort of what I remember from reading his books




It was cd3764 who wrote about it in this thread - can't remember the details....I'm not sure if he recommends either...but out of the two, he says Artemisinin is better....?


/www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3585931
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1353
   Posted 12/17/2017 9:42 AM (GMT -6)   
Maybe CD3764 just meant that he recommends it, not recommends it over artemesia annua. In the Babesia protocol he says that artemesia annua or its constituents can be used and then in parentheses says the whole herb is very effective. In his Lyme book he recommends against artemisinin for extended periods of time due to possible neurotoxicity but then says the whole herb might not be as dangerous (never actually confirmed to my knowledge). In vitro studies, at the least, have shown artemesia annua to be more effective in treating artemisinin resistant malaria and preventing resistance in the first place. There are few examples (none off the top of my head) where isolated constituents are preferred to synergistic mixtures. Only in the wives tales of modern day pharmacology is it said that refined is better.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/17/2017 12:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
Maybe CD3764 just meant that he recommends it, not recommends it over artemesia annua. In the Babesia protocol he says that artemesia annua or its constituents can be used and then in parentheses says the whole herb is very effective. In his Lyme book he recommends against artemisinin for extended periods of time due to possible neurotoxicity but then says the whole herb might not be as dangerous (never actually confirmed to my knowledge). In vitro studies, at the least, have shown artemesia annua to be more effective in treating artemisinin resistant malaria and preventing resistance in the first place. There are few examples (none off the top of my head) where isolated constituents are preferred to synergistic mixtures. Only in the wives tales of modern day pharmacology is it said that refined is better.


I think Buhner has changed his mind a few times over the years.

The WHO has Artemisinin and it's derivatives as a treatment for Malaria. (although it does mention on the website that there are 5 countries showing resistance)
The reason I know this - is my regular Dr. looked it up when I was in her office once when I told her I was taking Artemisinin. She was curious.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 12/17/2017 10:39:01 AM (GMT-7)


Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 12/17/2017 12:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Right but the WHO is an international organization with political concerns. They can not willy nilly recommend herbs for serious diseases unless they have been rigorously tested. That doesn't necessarily mean that artemisinin is preferable to artemisia. Just that the currently available evidence doesn't support using whole herb for potentially deadly diseases when more rigorous study has been done on its consituents. Preclinical evidence, on the other hand, offers insight into why compound synergy is important and using isolated products might be a huge mistake which is consistent with Buhners usual stance https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4311864/

As for Buhner, I have read all his books on Lyme, coinfections, and antibacterial/viral plants and don't recall him once recommending artemisinin over artemisia. Or any constituent over whole herb for that matter. I'm not saying you're wrong. Maybe I just don't remember. But it is out of character for him, I don't see those recommendations online, I can't find it in his book, and there is no reason I can conceive of him having that opinion in the first place. Hopefully CD will shed some light

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 12/17/2017 1:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Buhner himself calls his herbs "recommendations" constantly. He really does love the whole herb and he cracks me up how he reacts when he hears people call a plant a weed.

I love his videos along with his books. He is such a giver of his knowledge. He definitely is not in it for the money. Bless him.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/17/2017 1:31 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
Right but the WHO is an international organization with political concerns. They can not willy nilly recommend herbs for serious diseases unless they have been rigorously tested. That doesn't necessarily mean that artemisinin is preferable to artemisia. Just that the currently available evidence doesn't support using whole herb for potentially deadly diseases when more rigorous study has been done on its consituents. Preclinical evidence, on the other hand, offers insight into why compound synergy is important and using isolated products might be a huge mistake which is consistent with Buhners usual stance https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4311864/

As for Buhner, I have read all his books on Lyme, coinfections, and antibacterial/viral plants and don't recall him once recommending artemisinin over artemisia. Or any constituent over whole herb for that matter. I'm not saying you're wrong. Maybe I just don't remember. But it is out of character for him, I don't see those recommendations online, I can't find it in his book, and there is no reason I can conceive of him having that opinion in the first place. Hopefully CD will shed some light


Im not sure what Buhner's latest stance is on Babesia and Artemisinin or Artemisia.
LLMD's (and some LLND's) often have Artemisinin or Artesunate as their preferred form.

He does mention Artemisinin for Malaria prevention:



buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/malaria-and-artemisinin/

This is from 2008 - so 'old news'

buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/shorter-course-of-artemisinin/

This is from 2006 - and a note is added that he "now" prefers Crytolepis to Artemisia and Artemisinin.

buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/babesia-unconfirmed/
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

proactfit
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Date Joined Nov 2017
Total Posts : 11
   Posted 12/17/2017 2:22 PM (GMT -6)   
I have Buhner latest book and Artemisinin is on his protocol and even on his recommendation for a reduced protocol. He suggests Artemisinin (or artesunate or artemisone), 100-200 mg. 3x daily. I am so confused by this herb!! My naturopath told me to take it 30 days continuous as did my LLMD but I've read so much about pulsing so that your body doesn't build resistance. Buhner says in his book to follow the regimen for 30-60 days. I thought I also read by Buhner that the effectiveness goes down to 24% after 7 days but that pulsing won't help. I can't find where I read that though. I had decided to do 3 days on and seven to 11 days off to be safe so I didn't take any yesterday or today but I think I just changed my mind to do 30 days...

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
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   Posted 12/17/2017 2:34 PM (GMT -6)   
proactfit said...
I have Buhner latest book and Artemisinin is on his protocol and even on his recommendation for a reduced protocol. He suggests Artemisinin (or artesunate or artemisone), 100-200 mg. 3x daily. I am so confused by this herb!! My naturopath told me to take it 30 days continuous as did my LLMD but I've read so much about pulsing so that your body doesn't build resistance. Buhner says in his book to follow the regimen for 30-60 days. I thought I also read by Buhner that the effectiveness goes down to 24% after 7 days but that pulsing won't help. I can't find where I read that though. I had decided to do 3 days on and seven to 11 days off to be safe so I didn't take any yesterday or today but I think I just changed my mind to do 30 days...


Buhner is confusing many of us re: whole herb vs Artemisinin.
Maybe he's the one who is confused? smile

LLMD MR says 3 on and 11 off.

I think it's different than resistance - what happens is the small intestine can produce an enzyme that renders it useless. (According to aforementioned LLMD.

Many (most?) LLMD's prescribe it in a pulsed manner.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 12/17/2017 12:37:06 PM (GMT-7)


PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
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   Posted 12/17/2017 3:32 PM (GMT -6)   
buhner's website

Jan 14, 2012 | artemisinin, babesia, bartonella, Co-Infections, Herbs | 3 comments
Dear Stephen,
Is the dosage you recommend for artemisinin the same dosage we should use if we are consuming the whole herb? If not, how much of the whole herb is needed to yield a similar dosage?


Stephen’s response:
I no longer recommend artemisinin or artemisia. It can work but whatever you are treating Sida acuta will work better, especially for babesia or bartonella. Woodlandessence.com carries it.
Stephen

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 12/17/2017 4:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Maybe he's the one who is confused? smile


I've caught some of his errors before tongue

I do finally see where he listed artemisinin in the protocol. However, a couple pages before he says "the whole herb can be used very effectively if you wish". In his herbal antibiotics he recommends using fresh plant. Maybe this is why he has listed artemisinin in the protocol and not artemisia. Because he thinks people are unlikely to have access to fresh plant? I don't know. Not very consistent lol

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
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   Posted 12/17/2017 4:28 PM (GMT -6)   
PeteZa said...
buhner's website

Jan 14, 2012 | artemisinin, babesia, bartonella, Co-Infections, Herbs | 3 comments
Dear Stephen,
Is the dosage you recommend for artemisinin the same dosage we should use if we are consuming the whole herb? If not, how much of the whole herb is needed to yield a similar dosage?


Stephen’s response:
I no longer recommend artemisinin or artemisia. It can work but whatever you are treating Sida acuta will work better, especially for babesia or bartonella. Woodlandessence.com carries it.
Stephen


That was 2012 - since then - in his Babesia book it's part of the protocol - see proactfit's post above.

But, he's certainly been giving mixed messages.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

SayanaraBugs
New Member


Date Joined Nov 2017
Total Posts : 5
   Posted 12/18/2017 10:11 PM (GMT -6)   
I was just going to post about this herb! This is one of the main herbs in the Zhang protocol. I started off doing Zhang - which was working mighty nicely - for about 2 months until I started getting horrible digestive problems. He was away in China and I didn’t trust what his assistant was recommending so I slowly started Buhner. I went to see Dr. Zhang last week to follow up and he recommended that I take his artemisia annua and coptis, very slowly, with my current protocol. He said it was safe with what I’m taking and seemed sure and all. Thing is, Buhner no longer recommends it and online I find conflicting info.
Looking back, perhaps that is what gave me all the digestive issues. So I’m really not sure if I should listen to Zhang or Buhner. Thoughts anyone?
(OP,sorry if I’m hijacking your thread!)

Girlie
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   Posted 12/18/2017 10:58 PM (GMT -6)   
SayanaraBugs said...
I was just going to post about this herb! This is one of the main herbs in the Zhang protocol. I started off doing Zhang - which was working mighty nicely - for about 2 months until I started getting horrible digestive problems. He was away in China and I didn’t trust what his assistant was recommending so I slowly started Buhner. I went to see Dr. Zhang last week to follow up and he recommended that I take his artemisia annua and coptis, very slowly, with my current protocol. He said it was safe with what I’m taking and seemed sure and all. Thing is, Buhner no longer recommends it and online I find conflicting info.
Looking back, perhaps that is what gave me all the digestive issues. So I’m really not sure if I should listen to Zhang or Buhner. Thoughts anyone?
(OP,sorry if I’m hijacking your thread!)


Okay - so I'm quite sure Zhang's Artemisia is really Artemisinin and Artesunate (I think he has two different types) or it's Artesunate and dihydroartemisinin.

Hopefully someone will be along to clarify.

The order in 'strength' is Artemisinin, Artesunate, diydroartemisinin for the active constituent of Artemisia.

(Artemisia is whole herb)

Buhner has Artemisinin or artesunate in his Babesia protocol. (see proactfit's post above)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1353
   Posted 12/19/2017 8:21 AM (GMT -6)   
Anyone have any experiences with the tincture and Lyme? Was watching a lecture by Zhang on his persister drug studies and artemisinin was on the list of effective drugs. I've got a bottle of sweet annie but didn't notice much. But I had changed around a lot in my protocol. Wondering if it's worth another shot. Wish I had an answer to OPs question though. I've been hesitant to take it long term

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33907
   Posted 12/19/2017 12:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilo - anything I've read about toxicity and/or the need to pulse (because intestinal enzyme kills it) is on the Artemisinin, Artesunate and dihydroartemisinin....not the whole herb - which is what your tincture is, right?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

SayanaraBugs
New Member


Date Joined Nov 2017
Total Posts : 5
   Posted 12/19/2017 2:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie, it is definitely the whole plant - artemisia annual L. entire plant, says it right on the bottle. He combines it with red-rooted sage root and astragalus.
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