bee venom therapy and liver toxicity

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gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/17/2017 7:10 PM (GMT -6)   
I have restarted my bee venom therapy over the past few weeks and have been feeling much better because it stimulated my immune system when I felt like it was a road block, but I have run across some issues.

when I sting, I usually feel very sleepy afterwards and last time I did a session I did feel very tired- I thought it was just a herx, but was told by someone who has been doing apitherapy that I shouldn't herx too much from it. I didn't really pay attention to this issue. I also remember having darker colored urine- almost orange one day. I have been having paler colored stools as well.

It wasn't until today that I was researching bee venom therapy that I found this article

[url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208180/

now, I have felt like this before when my liver enzymes were elevated on rifampin, now I remember the sleepiness was an issue and what not.

I'm basically really sad because it seems as though I am going to have to discontinue this therapy, although it seems to be working well for me. I was really hopeful-this was my last shot at fighting this disease, I thought I could beat it. guess not.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32625
   Posted 12/17/2017 7:34 PM (GMT -6)   
gabybee - You should get blood work done and see if your Liver enzymes are indeed raised this time.
So, your urine is dark again?

Rifampin colors the pee orangish.


Can you do it less often..instead of quitting altogether? And only a few bees at a time?

The person in the article had 10 bees placed on arms and legs.
How many do you do at one time?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 12/17/2017 6:37:43 PM (GMT-7)


gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/17/2017 7:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I am not on rifampin anymore- I went on to do herbal treatments so this would not happen. I just remember my urine being bright orange but now I realize that could have been due to a vitamin I started taking again.

I do have the pale stools and the tiredness. I guess I need to find a doctor to go and see if my liver enzymes are raised.

Last time I felt like this, my blood work came back normal, though.

I can never tell what any of my symptoms are, I get so freaked out. It could be anything from my treatments of candida, to my treatments of lyme disease including the herbal tinctures I take and the BVT.

I am so lost, I really didn't want to stop this therapy because it really got me feeling better.
22 years old, symptoms started in 2013 and was diagnosed in 2015
HHV6/EBV
Lyme
Bartonella
MTHFR
ecoli+klebsiella
Candida

Treating with multiple vitamins + Supplements, Byron white formulas, and bee venom therapy.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32625
   Posted 12/17/2017 7:39 PM (GMT -6)   
gabybee said...
I am not on rifampin anymore- I went on to do herbal treatments so this would not happen. I just remember my urine being bright orange but now I realize that could have been due to a vitamin I started taking again.

I do have the pale stools and the tiredness. I guess I need to find a doctor to go and see if my liver enzymes are raised.

Last time I felt like this, my blood work came back normal, though.

I can never tell what any of my symptoms are, I get so freaked out. It could be anything from my treatments of candida, to my treatments of lyme disease including the herbal tinctures I take and the BVT.

I am so lost, I really didn't want to stop this therapy because it really got me feeling better.


Oh sorry - I thought the orange colored urine was before when you were also on Rifampin.
I edited my post - added that the woman did 10 bees on arms and legs..

What are you taking for liver support?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/17/2017 7:45 PM (GMT -6)   
I have just been doing 5 bees at a time.

For liver support I do the Pekana detox drainage which comes with a kidney and liver cleanse. I'm not really sure what is in them, but they were given to me by my naturopathic doctor while I was on rifampin so I do that occasionally.

Should I be taking milk thistle on a daily basis?

I detox so much and take epsom salt baths every other day.

I really can't tell the difference between a herx or liver problems, that article really freaked me out. Perhaps its just my anxiety kicking in and I'm fine (hopefully).
22 years old, symptoms started in 2013 and was diagnosed in 2015
HHV6/EBV
Lyme
Bartonella
MTHFR
ecoli+klebsiella
Candida

Treating with multiple vitamins + Supplements, Byron white formulas, and bee venom therapy.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32625
   Posted 12/17/2017 8:04 PM (GMT -6)   
I take the Pekana Apo-Hepat for liver detox.

I take it everyday though...you need it more than occasionally.


I would get a lab test done - for liver enzymes if I were you.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/17/2017 8:07 PM (GMT -6)   
Alright, thank you I am going to order something right now. The problem is I just went to my normal GP to get labwork done and he made a fuss about it. I guess I'm going to have to find someone else to order it since my naturopath can't.

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/17/2017 8:42 PM (GMT -6)   
I forgot to mention that I actually do take coq10 daily, glutathione, and alpha lipoic acid- all of them daily. I am going to start acetyl-carnitine tonight.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32625
   Posted 12/17/2017 9:25 PM (GMT -6)   
gabybee said...
Alright, thank you I am going to order something right now. The problem is I just went to my normal GP to get labwork done and he made a fuss about it. I guess I'm going to have to find someone else to order it since my naturopath can't.


My LLND sent my GP a letter explaining I would be on abx and I should have monthly lab work to check liver, kidney function along with a CBC. Maybe ask your ND to do that?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Lapis_29
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 844
   Posted 12/17/2017 10:12 PM (GMT -6)   
how muchn and what type of glutathione are you taking?

I have begun taking large doses of glut. after rife treatments and found it really helps. 3 - 4 grams Jarrow Formulas Reduced Glutathione at a time

also try milk thistle + phosphatidylcholine.



Somebody said...

As beneficial as milk thistle is, there’s one thing keeping it from reaching its fullest potential: silybin, the star component of silymarin, does not dissolve well in water.20,25 That makes it have poor bioavailability, meaning it’s difficult for your body to absorb.11-13,24

But scientists have now developed a simple but effective technology to overcome silybin’s poor bioavailability. The solution is to mix the silybin with a nutrient called phosphatidylcholine.

Phosphatidylcholine is a major component of cell membranes; it can facilitate transport across the cells lining the intestines, making it an ideal “carrier molecule” for silybin.24,47 Scientists believe that the phosphatidylcholine molecularly bonds to the silybin molecule and wraps around it, ushering it through the membranes of cells in the intestinal tract.24

The silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex is absorbed nearly 5 times better than silymarin alone, and its ultimate concentration to the liver, its target organ, is 10-fold greater than silymarin alone.11-13

In a study of rats exposed to various liver toxins (including dry-cleaning fluid, acetaminophen, and alcohol), silybin plus phosphatidylcholine protected against the telltale rise in plasma levels of liver enzymes (a marker of liver damage), while the same doses of either nutrient alone had no detectable effect.8

A series of human trials has found that this complex also has better results than silymarin or silybin alone, lowering serum levels of liver enzymes and producing clinical improvement in studies of liver cirrhosis and hepatitis caused by alcohol, drugs, and viruses.24

Lapis_29
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 844
   Posted 12/17/2017 10:32 PM (GMT -6)   
also if you read the study you linked they treated her thusly, why not treat it?

"She was managed with capsule ursodeoxycholic acid 500 mg orally twice daily for a period of 8 wk"

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/18/2017 8:30 AM (GMT -6)   
I wouldn't treat it with that because I do not know for sure that I have what the woman was diagnosed with. I was only worried because of pale stools and darker urine in the morning, which I have had before with rifampin and elevated liver enzymes.

right now I am going to break from the bees and stop my candida treatment for now, increase liver support and detox hard.
22 years old, symptoms started in 2013 and was diagnosed in 2015
HHV6/EBV
Lyme
Bartonella
MTHFR
ecoli+klebsiella
Candida

Treating with multiple vitamins + Supplements, Byron white formulas, and bee venom therapy.

bluelyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4715
   Posted 12/18/2017 3:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi gabee .i went thru this period as does some clients. I feel like its a immediate response to the lps of lyme and bart ..i think it may be adrenal related also .liver may play a role but when i was on rifampin zith roceph and bee venom .i did need support. Dr m pushes bart tx thru elevated wnzymes ..once bart clears the live can and will regenerate.
It went away after some iv glutithione and iv vit c then came the energy .
I realize not everyone can do ivs but one can try rhodelia and vit c 5g+daily) then try some coffe enemas and dandylion to see if its liver or adrenal or herxy...keep us posted ...ginseng bpollen got me thru

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/18/2017 4:19 PM (GMT -6)   
bluelyme said...
Hi gabee .i went thru this period as does some clients. I feel like its a immediate response to the lps of lyme and bart ..i think it may be adrenal related also .liver may play a role but when i was on rifampin zith roceph and bee venom .i did need support. Dr m pushes bart tx thru elevated wnzymes ..once bart clears the live can and will regenerate.
It went away after some iv glutithione and iv vit c then came the energy .
I realize not everyone can do ivs but one can try rhodelia and vit c 5g+daily) then try some coffe enemas and dandylion to see if its liver or adrenal or herxy...keep us posted ...ginseng bpollen got me thru


wow bluelyme thank you so so much for your response- i was feeling completely lost and heartbroken. I am definitely going to take my precautions and go more slowly, and detox wayyyy more. I am taking vitamin C and glutathione but I have decided to up my glutathione. I am currently taking a bee pollen supp that also has royal jelly and propolis in it. It doesn't feel like an adrenal thing, it definitely feels like a liver thing. Thanks for your advice, again!
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