LLMD said an interesting thing...wondering about youre experiences

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dbwilco
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Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 263
   Posted 1/1/2018 1:01 PM (GMT -6)   
started Mepron for Babs 9 days ago....LLMD, who is former head of Ilads, said he think Mepron also has some action against Bart...i told him i had never heard/read that, but he said its never been tested, and his experiences (has had 20,000 patients), seem to show that people with Bart react to Mepron as well...

he wasnt saying that it would cure/primarily treat it, but just that it seems to have some action on it...I ask, because im getting shin aches, like i did when was on Houttunyia, and was wondering if others had noticed anything like this when on Mepron

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32672
   Posted 1/1/2018 1:10 PM (GMT -6)   
hmm... I've not heard that...but I guess it's possible.


I stopped bart treatment to do Babs treatment - 7+ months. (can't remember exactly without checking my notes)


And, I did get some prior resolved symptoms coming back...so I'm now back on bart treatment.
I don't think for me...it kept my bart at bay.

Thing is - when you take Mepron, you're also taking one or two antibiotics with it...so it would be difficult to know if it was the Mepron...or not.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 1/1/2018 5:03 PM (GMT -6)   
My husband did not take Mepron or Houttuynia but he had horrible shin aches. Being a super athlete he was stumped by this "symptom."

He looked at me and said, "What is there on the shin to ache?"

I told him, "Lyme doesn't need much to cause a place of pain."

He just kept on treating with Buhner herbs and the pain went away. I think it took about a month before he was not saying it was there. It was an off and on symptom.

jrpsf
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Date Joined Aug 2014
Total Posts : 1682
   Posted 1/1/2018 8:09 PM (GMT -6)   
They are finding that more and more of the potent drugs for Babs and Bart have some cross over effects. Whether they actually kill, trigger symptoms, or keep replication at bay likely depends on the protocol you are on.

Rikky1
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2860
   Posted 1/1/2018 8:43 PM (GMT -6)   
another example is anti-parasitical drugs in the anthelmetic class like alinia and ivermectin do hit bart somewhat as bart has some parasitical tendencies.

there's so much crossover heck most of us may be sick because of parasites that have no name in the medical community.

Georgia Hunter
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Date Joined May 2012
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   Posted 1/2/2018 4:10 AM (GMT -6)   
Another possibility on the shin aches is that the inflammation due to infection has altered extracellular calcium levels and the body is releasing more calcium to auto regulate and correct the issue. This can be problematic for some who have high lead stores in their bones as lead gets released as well. The tibia and patella are common areas shown to have high lead levels.

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 263
   Posted 1/2/2018 4:35 AM (GMT -6)   
my LLMD is of the mindset that Bart is the major impediment to getting better in "post-lyme" situation...all the controversy is about Lyme, and therefore it it has been generally ignored in regards to research for better treatments...he is working with Neil Spector at Duke, along with Johns Hopkins and Tulane to find non-antibiotic drugs that hit Bart...its great that these heavy hitters are working in concert to try to find a new direction in Bart...will begin animal studies soon hopefully

Georgia Hunter
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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 2116
   Posted 1/2/2018 4:48 AM (GMT -6)   
dbwilco said...
started Mepron for Babs 9 days ago....LLMD, who is former head of Ilads, said he think Mepron also has some action against Bart...i told him i had never heard/read that, but he said its never been tested, and his experiences (has had 20,000 patients), seem to show that people with Bart react to Mepron as well...

he wasnt saying that it would cure/primarily treat it, but just that it seems to have some action on it...I ask, because im getting shin aches, like i did when was on Houttunyia, and was wondering if others had noticed anything like this when on Mepron


There is a synergistic effect that some pathogens have with other pathogens to increase the virulence of each. Someone posted a link or two on here a month or so back showing how one pathogen could help other pathogens survive (I would assume through gene transfer) but there are other ways as well. If the protozoan load is reduced, it would be much less likely that they could help bart or any other pathogen survive. I feel this is part of my problem. IMO, I don't think bartonella causes pathogenisis without another bacteria helping it.

I have a theory that each of us has a "Master File" of bacteria in our GI tract that we are supposed to have. It changes over time due to diet/environment and when this "file" gets tainted or affected by something, it works to go back to its original state. So when the conditions are unfavorable due to either a very virulent pathogen or multiple pathogens, our body fights to get back to the preferred mixture of bacteria. This fight includes a lot of oxidative stress, cellular destruction, and functional changes due to an inability to reduce free radical levels. Over a period of time, the body down regulates immune function to reduce oxidative stress. It is the lesser of two evils and the body does the best it can. Now the "Master File" has changed and the lactobacillus and bifidobacterium levels are reduced. This alters our immune response because these bacteria produce antibiotic like substances that affect fungal, bacteria, protozoal, and even mycobacterial loads. This is why MSIDS got coined and why I feel translocation of GI bacteria is an issue for many of us. The body translocates the GI bacteria on purpose to increase its immune response through their production of streptocin, bacteroicin, and many other antibiotic and pathogen reducing peptides.

A quote: Bacteroides, Prevotella, Porphyromonas, and Fusobacterium produce enzymes (collagenase, neuraminidase, deoxyribonuclease, deoxyribonuclease [DNase], heparinase, and proteinases) that may play a role in pathogenesis by helping the organisms to penetrate tissues and to set up infection after surgery or other trauma.

Once our master file increases in these bacteria, it's Katie bar the door. Anything that decreases the redox potential of the tissues is going to increase the chance of increased infection. A decrease in blood flow due to fibrin increase from an old injury would be sufficient. Maybe this is why my thumb often hurts. I jammed it really bad my senior year playing basketball. Taking something like nattokinase increased my immune response which caused more inflammation which caused more thumb pain. My underlying infection or agent that caused my master file change is still there and until I change that, I'm going to be the way I am now. IMO, borrelia doesn't cause a master file change in everyone, but when it does, it is a major problem. It alters manganese levels which alter lactobacillus levels which starts a negative cascade of health issues.

Print and show this to your LLMD and see what he says.

dacarte3
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1897
   Posted 1/2/2018 7:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Georgia Hunter said...
dbwilco said...
started Mepron for Babs 9 days ago....LLMD, who is former head of Ilads, said he think Mepron also has some action against Bart...i told him i had never heard/read that, but he said its never been tested, and his experiences (has had 20,000 patients), seem to show that people with Bart react to Mepron as well...

he wasnt saying that it would cure/primarily treat it, but just that it seems to have some action on it...I ask, because im getting shin aches, like i did when was on Houttunyia, and was wondering if others had noticed anything like this when on Mepron


There is a synergistic effect that some pathogens have with other pathogens to increase the virulence of each. Someone posted a link or two on here a month or so back showing how one pathogen could help other pathogens survive (I would assume through gene transfer) but there are other ways as well. If the protozoan load is reduced, it would be much less likely that they could help bart or any other pathogen survive. I feel this is part of my problem. IMO, I don't think bartonella causes pathogenisis without another bacteria helping it.

I have a theory that each of us has a "Master File" of bacteria in our GI tract that we are supposed to have. It changes over time due to diet/environment and when this "file" gets tainted or affected by something, it works to go back to its original state. So when the conditions are unfavorable due to either a very virulent pathogen or multiple pathogens, our body fights to get back to the preferred mixture of bacteria. This fight includes a lot of oxidative stress, cellular destruction, and functional changes due to an inability to reduce free radical levels. Over a period of time, the body down regulates immune function to reduce oxidative stress. It is the lesser of two evils and the body does the best it can. Now the "Master File" has changed and the lactobacillus and bifidobacterium levels are reduced. This alters our immune response because these bacteria produce antibiotic like substances that affect fungal, bacteria, protozoal, and even mycobacterial loads. This is why MSIDS got coined and why I feel translocation of GI bacteria is an issue for many of us. The body translocates the GI bacteria on purpose to increase its immune response through their production of streptocin, bacteroicin, and many other antibiotic and pathogen reducing peptides.

A quote: Bacteroides, Prevotella, Porphyromonas, and Fusobacterium produce enzymes (collagenase, neuraminidase, deoxyribonuclease, deoxyribonuclease [DNase], heparinase, and proteinases) that may play a role in pathogenesis by helping the organisms to penetrate tissues and to set up infection after surgery or other trauma.

Once our master file increases in these bacteria, it's Katie bar the door. Anything that decreases the redox potential of the tissues is going to increase the chance of increased infection. A decrease in blood flow due to fibrin increase from an old injury would be sufficient. Maybe this is why my thumb often hurts. I jammed it really bad my senior year playing basketball. Taking something like nattokinase increased my immune response which caused more inflammation which caused more thumb pain. My underlying infection or agent that caused my master file change is still there and until I change that, I'm going to be the way I am now. IMO, borrelia doesn't cause a master file change in everyone, but when it does, it is a major problem. It alters manganese levels which alter lactobacillus levels which starts a negative cascade of health issues.

Print and show this to your LLMD and see what he says.


Very well written, smart post.

I agree. So much of recovery from lyme is our microbiome/flora which is mostly in our gut. Heck that's the majority of just overall health for humans (and probably most mammals).

NicHostetler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 622
   Posted 1/2/2018 8:11 AM (GMT -6)   
dbwilco said...
started Mepron for Babs 9 days ago....LLMD, who is former head of Ilads, said he think Mepron also has some action against Bart...i told him i had never heard/read that, but he said its never been tested, and his experiences (has had 20,000 patients), seem to show that people with Bart react to Mepron as well...

he wasnt saying that it would cure/primarily treat it, but just that it seems to have some action on it...I ask, because im getting shin aches, like i did when was on Houttunyia, and was wondering if others had noticed anything like this when on Mepron


When I started my Mepron/Zith combo my foot pain flared which is a sx of bart. Some neuro stuff flared too. I started about a month ago and am not doing too well. Tons of dizzyness for me.

How are you doing so far?
Very sick starting around 07/2016
Started treatment 03/2017
Bixain & Cefdinir - 3 months - plateaued
Then Biaxin & Minocycline - 3 months - did not improve
Tinidazole - 500MG 2x a day - 2 weeks
Now taking:
Mepron 5mL 2x a day
Zithromax
Nystatin
Cats Claw - 30 drops 2x a day
Gou Teng - 30 drops 2x a day
CSA - 40 drops 2x a day
Japanese Knotweed - 40 drops 2x a day

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 263
   Posted 1/3/2018 3:44 AM (GMT -6)   
im 11 days in, and no major changes, though definitely increase in depression in first wk...also shin ache and plantar fascitis pain in sole of foot...but my stomach is messed up, presumably from all the abx, so im ready to very soon go the herbal route

Rikky1
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2860
   Posted 1/3/2018 8:16 AM (GMT -6)   
bartonella has some parasitical tendencies so not surprising mepron or other anti-parasiticals would have impact on it.

>>my LLMD is of the mindset that Bart is the major impediment to getting better in "post-lyme" situation

that's funny because Dr. J in DC believes that Babesia is the one that impedes chronic sufferers from getting better. Dr. J has over 3000 active patients and has over two decades of work in this field so he's got the credentials.

i've been treating babesia for all of 2017 and last appt he said your liver and spleen are almost back to normal so you've turned the corner and in a few more months we can switch you to the persister/bartonella/GI parasite protocol.

he's used this approach for many years and claims to have a 90% success rate. i'm definitely doing better but my nerve issues persist and i believe that's some other pathogen so we'll see.
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