how do you know if it's Lyme or an autoimmune issue? receiving conflicting advice

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LilyPanda
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Date Joined Jun 2016
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   Posted 1/3/2018 11:15 AM (GMT -6)   
I've posted before about my confusion as to conflicting advice I've received from doctors. I've never had a Lyme test that was positive by CDC standards, although a couple of doctors still think my tests and symptoms indicated Lyme. However, my symptoms seem very much like autoimmune issues (dry eyes/mouth, fatigue, pain in multiple small joints), and my rheumatologist scoffs at the idea that I might have Lyme.

I'm wondering if I should just accept that I have an autoimmune disorder and focus on treating that, rather than Lyme. I want so much not to have an autoimmune illness, and so I've clung to the idea of Lyme (even though I know that Lyme too can be pretty terrible). But I wonder if that's foolishness on my part.

My symptoms began with dry eyes and dry mouth. I later developed fatigue, and later some pain in my fingers, toes, wrists, ankles, and knees. The discomfort is most noticeable in my fingers. There is no swelling.

I understand that these are all classic signs of an autoimmune disorder. I've been repeatedly tested for Sjogren's Syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, etc., and the specific blood tests have all come back negative. However, my ANA has been consistently positive (usually 1:80, although it once hit 1:160). The rheumatologist has put "undifferentiated connective tissue disorder" on my chart.

My primary care doctor thinks I have Lyme. I was positive for bands that she said are suggestive of Lyme, and I had a blood test showing Bartonella. More recently, I had a DNA Connexions test done (the urine test) that was negative for Bartonella, but positive for Babesia, ehrlichia, and Borrellia something (not burgdorferi).

I've made an appointment with a well-known LLMD in Connecticut, although it's still many weeks away. In the meantime, I'm freaking out about the increasing pain in my fingers. My rheumatologist says that damage to the small joints can happen quickly and that I should consider starting medication. But if by some chance it is Lyme, I'm worried that I'll do harm by taking autoimmune meds (such as prednisone, methotrexate, whatever else that start with).

Sorry for such a long post. I really appreciate any thoughts or advice. I'm just feeling lost right now.
Started herbal treatment for Lyme in early 2017. Started doxycycline Aug. 2017. I still feel uncertain about my diagnosis because tests were technically indeterminate (except for Bartonella, which was positive), and because my symptoms were previously attributed to possible autoimmune issues (for which I've so far tested negative).

PeteZa
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   Posted 1/3/2018 11:30 AM (GMT -6)   
Go with your gut instincts and also with the tests!

You say you have tests that show lyme (positive for Babesia, ehrlichia, and Borrellia something (not burgdorferi)). That should be enough to convince you right there.

But, you are the only one that can decide what is right for you. I know you think you might be making a mistake, but sometimes we just have to go and do it and we can always change if we feel like it later.

I've never had a Lyme test that was positive by CDC standards, although a couple of doctors still think my tests and symptoms indicated Lyme.

I think a lot of us on this forum could type those words. I never was CDC positive. Lyme is sneaky and can hide. I definitely had lyme. I think the statistic says that over 50% (someone correct me) of people with lyme never see a tick or have a bull's eye.

Also lyme can mimic auto-immune diseases. Notice I typed diseases. There are many things that doctors think we "might" have, when in fact it is lyme. Remember not many doctors are educated in lyme. Therefore, if they did not study it, they think it does not exist.

tickbite666
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   Posted 1/3/2018 11:39 AM (GMT -6)   
just stay away from all steroids. That's when I finally had to fire my Rhuemy, and she never bought into my lyme dx and treatment plan.

Joint pain and stiffness were some of my first sx that resolved with Lyme treatment.

WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 1/3/2018 12:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Lilypanda,

DNA doesn't lie. DNA Connexions is a DNA test. Assume that you have every infection you tested positive for. Do NOT assume you don't have any other infections, including bartonella, just because you did not test positive with DNA Connexions. A negative on their test only means no DNA for bartonella was found in the sample they tested. You already have a positive blood test for bartonella.

I have the exact same type of joint symptoms and dry eyes and mouth. Those symptoms are most likely from bartonella.

As for the positive ANA, Lyme and coinfections alter the immune system and create dysfunctional immune responses in the body. These autoimmune tendencies can go away once the infections have been adequately treated for at least several months after symptoms have stopped. Please be aware that taking steroids or any type of immune suppressing drug will only allow the infections to go uncontrolled, as you will be suppressing your immune system. This is exactly the kind of drugs that Rheumotologists prescribe for autoimmune conditions. Instead of trying to find the reason WHY your immune system is malfunctioning (infections), they choose to push drugs to turn the immune response off.

There are herbs that can effectively redirect the immune system and cytokine responses back to normal. Stephen Buhner has herbal protocols to address the specific cytokines involved in each of the infections. It would be wise, IMO, to use those even if you choose to treat the infections with antibiotics. The herbs work very well along with the antibiotics.

I recommend getting Stephen Buhner's books on Healing Lyme and the various coinfections (3 books) if you want to understand these infections and what they do in the body and to have reference books with the full protocols for the infections.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 1/3/2018 11:32:51 AM (GMT-7)


notsosicklygirl
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   Posted 1/3/2018 12:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Have you gotten opinions from more than one rheumatologist? I think I would want to if I consistently had a positive ANA. Have you had further tests to rule out AI? Are you on the waiting list to see about getting in sooner if there's an opening for the LLMD? I'd probably wait to start anything until you feel comfortable with your diagnosis. In the meantime, a second opinion wouldn't hurt.
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Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
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   Posted 1/3/2018 1:27 PM (GMT -6)   
You have positive bands for lyme PLUS positive bart test and Babesia. That's all you need.
You have lyme disease....and coinfections.

I wouldn't pursue the autoimmune avenue...the steroids will suppress your immune system...and could cause more damage than just waiting to treat. Steroids are contraindicated with lyme disease..

Many people with lyme have positive ANA show up.

Seeing if you can be on a waitlist for a cancellation is a good idea...people do cancel.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/3/2018 1:35 PM (GMT -6)   
Agreeing with the others on this, your testing shows you have these infections, and we know that Lyme can cause those issues, and Bart can cause the dry eyes and mouth (I had those symptoms too - about drove me nuts!).

If a doctor is not open to the possibility that their patient has these infections, they will never look to these infections. The very least you should do is find a Lyme literate Rhuemy to see - at least they would understand what Lyme looks like. And, connective tissues issues are pretty common with Lyme patients.

My fingers and toes are all bent and deformed from these infections. I know it's from these infections because despite my pushing years ago, I had a doctor that tested me for all kinds of arthritis, and not one form showed up in testing, because it was from infectious diseases, not from autoimmune issues.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Eiren
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 58
   Posted 1/4/2018 3:39 AM (GMT -6)   
Just chiming in here to say that I did, absolutely, get lyme, and pain in my fingers and toes, and up from those to my body, are my main complaint. It's also in my chest. There is no swelling.

Connective tissue disorder - hmm, that's a good name for it. I think the medical establishment is starting to accept that lyme can cause peripheral neuropathy (which is what my first inclination was, my doctor thought it was tendinitis, but there's no such thing as chronic systemic tendinitis). Maybe next they'll accept that lyme can cause CTD.

I read a journal article a few months ago that said they did a biopsy of a lyme patient and found lyme bacteria in tissue from her tendons. Can't find the article again right now, but I found it interesting.

Oh, and I've been thoroughly checked for RA and everything else under the sun. I'm perfectly healthy - on paper.

ETA: Oh, yeah I found an old thread with a link to the study /www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=1897585

Post Edited (Eiren) : 1/4/2018 2:44:55 AM (GMT-7)


Psilociraptor
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   Posted 1/4/2018 6:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Ask your self... what is an autoimmune disease? Almost every credible explanation of the process involves an infectious precursor. Most of the time a pathogen that associates closely with a tissue will evolve surface antigens that mimmick that tissue. This allows it to interact with host receptors as well as subvert immunity by masquerading as host tissue. The consequence of a mounted response is b cells and t cells that attack both the pathogen and the tissue it mimmicks. Infectious disease and autoimmunity are not separate issues as far as I'm concerned. The link is widely recognized. But there is this pervasive logical flaw in conventional medicine. That is all ability to detect the pathogen disappears but symptoms persist. Therefor it must be "post infectious" runaway inflammation. But... absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Cases like Lyme demonstrate quite clearly why one should not assume lack of detection means rogue inflammation.

In short, whether or not it's Lyme disease approach it as if it was. Even Lyme disease would have been nothing but a constellation of autoimmune neuropathies and arthropathies if no one had seen the spirochete

Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 1/4/2018 5:57:27 AM (GMT-7)


k07
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   Posted 1/4/2018 8:52 AM (GMT -6)   
Everyone has given you great advice. I've questioned diagnosis the same as you. My symptoms line up exactly with MS.

A good LLMD should be doing a whole lot more than just killing bugs. Some of the cofactors (like metals, mold, parasites, bad detox, vitamin/mineral imbalances, etc) can be disrupting the immune system so that it doesn't work properly. A rheumy would just treat symptom which is not at all fixing an issue. And if you just ignore the problem, others will crop up. I know someone with MS who just developed cancer.

Testing adds so much confusion to an already confusing diagnosis. It is very hard to know who to trust. I've had an indeterminite IGeneX test (twice - but at least the bands were consistent), negative Labcorp WB (3 or 4 times), positive c6 ELISA, and fully negative on DNA Connexions. I pretty much only see docs that support the Lyme diagnosis now - LL or integrative/functional type docs. Mainstream docs cause me to get too upset.

I find herbs are more easy on my body and help alleviate symptoms. But I don't feel they are curing anything because I will backslide when I stop taking them. Possibly because I have not addressed the root cause or taken a high enough dose.

It takes years to figure this all out. I am entering my third year and still finding pieces to the puzzle.

mm57553
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Date Joined Jan 2017
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   Posted 1/4/2018 8:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Like the others have said, you have Lyme (and co-infections). You have positive tests for Lyme and co-infections, and negative tests for the autoimmune disorders, so why would you not think it's Lyme?

I think I'm not alone when I say that I was diagnosed with a lot of different things before Lyme. Some doctors still say I don't have Lyme. Funny that while they were treating me, I got worse. When I started treating for Lyme, I got better. I don't think it's just a coincidence.

astroman
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   Posted 1/4/2018 9:00 AM (GMT -6)   
"...........This is exactly the kind of drugs that Rheumotologists prescribe for autoimmune conditions. Instead of trying to find the reason WHY your immune system is malfunctioning (infections), they choose to push drugs to turn the immune response off............."

I know someone who almost recently died from a Rhumy Rx'ing steriods for them!

They had to have a heart valve replaced because of these drugs. Turns out they didnt have autoimmune issues, but DID have a hidden Staph bacterial infection which further got out of control and spread to the heart FROM steriods. Would have died a few days later, as heart could no longer pump enough blood.

There were no positive autoimmune antibodies, yet the Rhumy Rx'ed steriods, ???

If more Drs had logical sense like say, a good mechanic or "hands on person", vs somtimes only book smarts, these things would not happen as often.

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 1/4/2018 9:11 AM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...

If more Drs had logical sense like say, a good mechanic or "hands on person", vs somtimes only book smarts, these things would not happen as often.


Actually, if they had book smarts these things wouldn't happen either. I've never treated a patient and that sort of outcome is exactly what I would have feared given the current literature on the relation between bacteria and autoimmunity

LilyPanda
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Date Joined Jun 2016
Total Posts : 55
   Posted 1/4/2018 10:53 AM (GMT -6)   
Thank you so much for all these replies. I've read every reply more than once, in detail, and am taking to heart the thoughts and advice provided.

I have a tendency to overthink things, and I also have a tendency to doubt my own instincts. I have friends who are doctors (and thought of going to med school myself, when I was in college), and in many ways I have faith in Western medicine. So when my rheumatologist (who is truly well-meaning) dismisses the possibility of Lyme so adamantly, I begin to doubt myself.

For example, she told me that Lyme does not typically cause pain in multiple small joints (such as fingers and toes), but generally affects one or two large joints, such as the knee. When I tell her that I've seen many online accounts of people with Lyme and co-infections who have finger/hand pain, she insists that they likely have undiagnosed rheumatoid arthritis or other autoimmune issues.

"I'm not saying they didn't also have Lyme at some point," she said. "But there are studies showing that many people being treated for Lyme actually have rheumatoid arthritis, and they're missing the chance to treat that and prevent joint damage."

I asked about the theory that a tick-borne infection might be one cause of RA. She said that it was possible, but that once the RA was in place, treating the Lyme infection wouldn't make the RA go away.

At this point, based on the DNA Connexions test results and the posts here, I believe that I have Lyme and co-infections. But there's a part of me that's also scared that maybe my rheumatologist is right: that if I don't aggressively treat the joint pain now (with prednisone or methotrexate or plaquenil or whatever) that I'll have permanent damage to my joints and my hands will be deformed.

A few specific responses:
notsosicklygirl -- I did see two different rheumatologists, and I've had blood tests run repeatedly (and even had a lip biopsy done to test for Sjogren's Syndrome). Thus far, all the tests have been negative, aside from the ANA. But the rheumatologists said that it's possible to have an AI disorder without positive test results; and that sometimes the test results are negative until the illness is more advanced.

I will call and ask to be put on a cancellation list, as you suggested. Thank you for the advice.

Traveler -- I remember from other posts that you said that you'd had the dry eyes/mouth. Am I remembering correctly that those improved with proper treatment?

WalkingbyFaith -- You said that you have the same joint pain. Do you mean you have the finger/hand pain? I rarely see anyone else mention that. Have you had any improvement in the joint pain or the dry eyes/mouth so far? And thank you for the Buhner suggestions. I have his book that covers bartonella and have been using some of the recommended supplements (though I've been using alcohol-free extracts, which I think aren't as strong as the tinctures). I'll pick up the others as well.

Thank you again, to everyone, for your replies.
Started herbal treatment for Lyme in early 2017. Did 1 month of doxycycline Aug. 2017. Uncertain about diagnosis because tests were technically indeterminate, and because my symptoms are classic symptoms of possible autoimmune issues (for which I've so far tested negative). Currently seeing an LLMD in NYC, but have also made an April 2018 appt with an LLMD practice in Connecticut.

Girlie
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   Posted 1/4/2018 11:20 AM (GMT -6)   
I had finger joint pain. If I'm remembering correctly it was after I started Bart treatment.
I would wake in the middle of the night with my hands clenched and very sore - I would pry my fingers apart and go back to sleep.

It is gone now.

Lyme and co's aren't restricted to where they go. Any part of our body can be affected...why not the hands?
That doesn't make sense..really.

Oh, and years ago I developed arthritis in my right big toe. After a few months the symptoms went away - no pain.
It came back with Lyme...several years later.

I have no autoimmune markers - not even the ANA.

And I have gone through periods of dry mouth since Lyme.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 1/4/2018 10:25:08 AM (GMT-7)


Psilociraptor
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   Posted 1/4/2018 11:48 AM (GMT -6)   
"treating the Lyme infection wouldn't make the RA go away. "

Completely unsubstantiated claim. The issue here is that many animal models have shown that current treatment is likely not effective in post-disseminated Lyme which may explain the persisting symptoms in treated people. This doesn't mean treating the infection won't make the RA go away. It means treating the infection inadequately won't make the RA go away (duh). Whether or not adequate treatment produces symptomatic relief can not really be assessed when there is no current agreement on how to achieve eradication of the infection or even how to measure it.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32559
   Posted 1/4/2018 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Ive posted a link to this site before. It's about autoimmune (I think mostly RA) being treated with antibiotics and people get well:

www.roadback.org
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

k07
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Date Joined Sep 2015
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   Posted 1/4/2018 12:19 PM (GMT -6)   
I too have finger joint pain. Or maybe I would describe it more as an ache. I have a hard time braiding my daughters' hair anymore. I have no autoimmune markers. I also have burning eyes - almost feels like my eyes are super tired. I've attributed the dry eyes and mouth to being somewhat dehydrated since I have frequent urination.

Many LLMD's prescribe plaquenil - it does have an effect on Lyme & co. You could specifically ask for that if it would make you feel better.

Post Edited (k07) : 1/4/2018 11:22:35 AM (GMT-7)


JustPiccd
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Date Joined Dec 2017
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   Posted 1/4/2018 3:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Does your ANA have a specific pattern associated with it? It sounds like your rheum ruled out *some* possibilities for a positive ANA via antibody testing, but certainly not all. The pattern would help direct you more to other tests to ask for maybe.

My ANA has been positive consistently too, along with positive RF, but seemingly as a *result* of the infections.

You could try Plaquenil as suggested, minocycline, and IV clinda which is used for some autoimmune diseases, and whether it's Lyme or not, if it hits the target these can have the same positive effects as others have said.

But also keep in mind LLMDs do talk about Lyme and coinfections *inducing* autoimmunity and autoimmune diseases, so it's a real chicken-egg scenario.

LilyPanda
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Date Joined Jun 2016
Total Posts : 55
   Posted 1/4/2018 3:56 PM (GMT -6)   
JustPiccd -- My ANA pattern has consistently come back as nucleolar. (The last time, it came back as both nucleolar and speckled.) Nucleolar is supposedly associated with scleroderma, which is honestly terrifying to me.

Both rheumatologists did extensive bloodwork to look for scleroderma markers, and also looked for other indicia of scleroderma (e.g., abnormalities in my cuticles). All negative so far, and both doctors seem to think it's very unlikely. But the consistency of the nucleolar ANA pattern still worries me.

I'm nervous about plaquenil because of the risk of retinal damage. Although doctors always describe this risk as very low, more recent studies suggest that it's almost inevitable once a certain lifetime cumulative dose is reached. Also, my sister-in-law was given plaquenil years ago when she was treated for Lyme, and she developed retinal thinning after just a few months.

k07 -- It was actually when I was braiding my daughter's hair last week that I first realized how bad the finger discomfort was getting. I'd been mostly ignoring it, assuming it would disappear soon as it had before. But it was uncomfortable enough to interfere with braiding, and a couple of my fingers actually felt stiff/weak.
Started herbal treatment for Lyme in early 2017. Did 1 month of doxycycline Aug. 2017. Uncertain about diagnosis because tests were technically indeterminate, and because my symptoms are classic symptoms of possible autoimmune issues (for which I've so far tested negative). Currently seeing an LLMD in NYC, but have also made an April 2018 appt with an LLMD practice in Connecticut.

WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 1/4/2018 4:16 PM (GMT -6)   
LilyPanda said...

WalkingbyFaith -- You said that you have the same joint pain. Do you mean you have the finger/hand pain? I rarely see anyone else mention that. Have you had any improvement in the joint pain or the dry eyes/mouth so far? And thank you for the Buhner suggestions. I have his book that covers bartonella and have been using some of the recommended supplements (though I've been using alcohol-free extracts, which I think aren't as strong as the tinctures). I'll pick up the others as well.


Yes. I have stiffness in the small joints of my fingers and toes and stiffness in my wrists and ankles and now my elbows. I don't have redness or swelling. The stiffness occurs on the right and left sides at the same time.

I've also had dry eyes and mouth - at times extreme. I was tested for Sjogren's and RA in 2015. Results were negative.

I have had improvements with bartonella treatment.

A lot of emphasis in the medical literature is placed on Lyme and arthritis as in a swollen knee. Not nearly enough emphasis is placed on coinfections or their symptoms. Glad to hear you have Buhner's bartonella book. You will find he mentions those joints and also tendon pain. After I got worsened joint stiffness in the elbows and had tender spots that hurt when I laid my arm down on the table, it finally registered that the stiffness was likely coming from the tendons as opposed to the joints themselves.

I, too, am very analytical. You will find Buhner's books very enlightening.

You're right about the tinctures. I've read the alcohol-free is not as potent so you will need higher doses if you use those.

LilyPanda
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Date Joined Jun 2016
Total Posts : 55
   Posted 1/4/2018 4:42 PM (GMT -6)   
In addition to noticing swelling in my finger joints for the first time yesterday, I'm starting to feel pain/discomfort all over my body right now. (Until a couple of hours ago, I just had aching in my fingers, wrists, toes, ankles, and knees -- but it was only constant in my fingers.) I really feel as if I've been hit by a bus. I'm a little scared and not sure what to do.
Started herbal treatment for Lyme in early 2017. Did 1 month of doxycycline Aug. 2017. Uncertain about diagnosis because tests were technically indeterminate, and because my symptoms are classic symptoms of possible autoimmune issues (for which I've so far tested negative). Currently seeing an LLMD in NYC, but have also made an April 2018 appt with an LLMD practice in Connecticut.

JustPiccd
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 84
   Posted 1/4/2018 7:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Lily, me too nucleolar!! You're the first person I have encountered with this pattern, and -- like you -- I am frightened about scleroderma. It has been nucleolar three times now, but the second two times it also had "homogenous" pattern as well.

I too nixed plaquenil after trying it for about two months and feeling a weird sensation in one of my eyes.

I also had all of the follow up antibody tests for scleroderma and was negative, which doesn't nec. rule it out. I also was neg. for the antibody testing for lupus, RA, polymyositis, etc. I am hoping to do additional tests to try and figure out more of what's happening as well, but like you, it's a little mystifying if it's all about Lyme/co's or what.

astroman
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   Posted 1/4/2018 8:22 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingByFaith- ["Glad to hear you have Buhner's bartonella book. You will find he mentions those joints and also tendon pain. After I got worsened joint stiffness in the elbows and had tender spots that hurt when I laid my arm down on the table, it finally registered that the stiffness was likely coming from the tendons as opposed to the joints themselves."]


You hit the nail on the head. In many cases, "lyme joint pain", is from the stiff and shortened tendons pulling on the joint. You can feel it in the joint, but in this case, thats not the cause.

You have to be very analytical in body pain. You need to poke and prod areas "testing" tissues for density and unusual tension. Many areas of the body will only be painful when pressure is applied, even if they are causing referred, constant pain to another location.

I've been repairing and elongating tendons using several different techniques for about four-five years now as opposed to just muscle work. This has improved all my larger joints. Its too time time and $ involved to rely solely on PT/chiros ect for this, so I had to learn this. You-Tube is awesome.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/4/2018 7:26:06 PM (GMT-7)


acarined
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 173
   Posted 1/4/2018 9:39 PM (GMT -6)   
Plaquenil is fairly safe to use with monitoring, and is likely to have the fewest side effects out of your available options.
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