What do you think about these kind of big claims?

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greatguy
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 11:38 AM (GMT -6)   
https://www.sciencealert.com/side-effects-from-antibiotics-include-immune-system-damage-and-fewer-brain-cells-study-shows

Abx are bad for you, apparently.

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 1/5/2018 11:44 AM (GMT -6)   
https://www.sciencealert.com/side-effects-from-antibiotics-include-immune-system-damage-and-fewer-brain-cells-study-shows


I tried helped you with the hyperlink. You have to copy and paste. Thanks Traveler for the head's up.

Interesting.

Post Edited (PeteZa) : 1/5/2018 11:53:37 AM (GMT-7)


greatguy
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 12:13 PM (GMT -6)   
I think these kind of studies are either there to stop Lyme Disease patients from getting help, or they are there sponsored by factions and organisation as IDSA and Big Pharma. The Pharma companies made abx just so people don't completely get eradicated from planet earth, but at the same time made a bunch of other meds that are used WAY more often than they actually should, like anti depression meds. I think you and the whole community of lyme patients will agree that antidepressants are needed maybe by some very small percent of people that STILL might have lyme, but it is only in the brain. The rest need to study thoroughly their life and conclude that depression is the consequences of another illness, not a illnes by itself. Panic disorders, anxiety, especially social, autism, how many people actually have lyme and it is not picked because there isn't a tool that will pick it, sort of the "one size fits all mentalities".

How can lyme be found in Alzheimer's, MS, Parkinson's, RA, Lupus, Fibro, CFS, Autism and much more illnesses and be only picked by a crapty antibody test, even with Igenex.

There needs to be some kind of tool to detect the infection itself, but not by drilling a hole in someone's head for a brain biopsy, nor in someone's spine.

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/5/2018 12:20 PM (GMT -6)   
PeteZa - your link didn't work either because they don't want this article linked. So, people will have to copy and paste the article address into your browser window. Sorry.

Well, in that article, what they fail to mention is that in the first instance, they are talking about during a transplant - not during an infectious disease.

The second instance, they fail to give the entire picture, which is stated in the article they refer to:
"Probiotics or exercise rescues neurogenesis and cognitive function"

So, not only is this NOT new information (we've known for some deal of time that probiotics MUST be taken when abx are used), but it's misleading and they are using scare tactics to try to convince us how bad abx are - and I'm one that doesn't use abx, but am offended at the blatant issues with the article!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

greatguy
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Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 12:35 PM (GMT -6)   
Exactly. Many people have taken abx for years not just for Lyme and got a lot better.

The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
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   Posted 1/5/2018 12:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Here's a link that works:

Antibiotics Found to Cause Immune System Damage And Reduce Brain Cell Growth
bit.ly/2Edq43b

Linking long URLs is problematic, from what seems to be limitations of this forum. (Like threads needing to be limited to four pages and the inability to embed images.)

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 1/5/2018 12:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Traveler - I changed it.

Dude, thanks for the link.

greatguy
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 1:15 PM (GMT -6)   
I can't seem to find anything regarding "Do abx cause inflammation". All i get is abx reduce inflammation, so if there is inflammation while on abx, it is an infection, most commonly lyme and co's. So, how can abx cause damage? They can't by themselves.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32695
   Posted 1/5/2018 1:20 PM (GMT -6)   
they can cause damage to our guts...and also some do have risks.
We need to be aware of that.

BUT, antibiotics are used successfully for many diseases...and have saved many lives.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

greatguy
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 1:30 PM (GMT -6)   
Interested what kind of risks. I think abx risks are while on abx (excluding hyper sensitivity that leads to anaphylaxis).

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32695
   Posted 1/5/2018 1:43 PM (GMT -6)   
greatguy said...
Interested what kind of risks. I think abx risks are while on abx (excluding hyper sensitivity that leads to anaphylaxis).


Anaphylaxis - is when you're allergic...but there are more side effects/risks than that.

Each antibiotic has it's list of side effects....they're usually very long.
And, though most happen while you're on them...some can cause permanent issues, although rare.

Fluoroquinolones can cause damage even after stopping them.

This article was specifically about immune damage and brain effects...though. I don't know of or can't remember if those risks are particularly mentioned on the lists for the antibiotics.

** I'm not against antibiotics - in fact that is my chosen method of treatment. But, each antibiotic comes with a list (almost a mile long) of side effects that can happen.
I take them knowing that. **
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 1/5/2018 12:49:27 PM (GMT-7)


greatguy
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 1:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Fluoroquinolones

I would not take those abx myself. Ruptured tendons happen while on those. But these are just a class of abx, most people on doxy, zithro and flagyl won't get any life threatening illness.

The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
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   Posted 1/5/2018 2:03 PM (GMT -6)   
greatguy,

First of all, I don't believe there's any great conspiracy with antibiotics. That's just my opinion. People are free to believe whatever they like. It just seems that public health research, like nearly everything else the government does, moves extremely slow. They do advance their ideas, but at a snail's pace...and, perhaps, only after being beaten over-the-head with new evidence.

Also, in the article you linked, it states the following:

"The findings serve as a reminder that while antibiotics can be powerful allies for the human body in the fight against disease, they can also do more harm than good if used in the wrong situations..." (emphasis mine)

and...

"Scientists involved in both studies have emphasised that there's more work to be done, and further tests to be run before we understand exactly what this means for the way we use these antibiotics in the future. For the time being, though, it's a good reminder that these drugs should always be carefully used – and not overused in any circumstances." (emphasis mine)

So, to me, the article is pretty worthless.

If one turns-on the evening news (which, I do not recommend), then they would presented with plenty of reasons to never drive a car (deadly crashes), never turn-on their stove (deadly house fires), or never have a shower (deadly slips-and-falls). These days, there are so many ways to get "news" (I use that term loosely) and so many agencies publishing information, that they all compete to get clicks/views/shares, in hopes of capturing some of the billions of dollars in advertising revenue. Thus, most of the information being disseminated is absolute junk. Both in terms of journalistic quality and research - or, lack thereof. To see this in action, simply visit Yahoo.com.

Anyway, my apologies for the Op-Ed piece. Most things are never simple enough to be encapsulated in a sound bite like "antibiotics are good" or "antibiotics are bad." There is a continuum and context matters. Used indiscriminately, antibiotics can be problematic. However, antibiotics have also saved lives.

Based on some of your comments, here are some things you may find interesting:

The Virus That Kills Drug-Resistant Superbugs
/youtu.be/aVTOr7Nq2SM

Assassins of Lyme Bacteria - Dr. David Jernigan, Hansa Center for Optimum Health
/youtu.be/JzX3h67RWTI

Helping the Body Beat Lyme Disease - Dr. David Jernigan, Hansa Center for Optimum Health
/youtu.be/u8_dyHJWR7U

If you happen to watch any of them, I'd be interested in your feedback.

Be well,
The Dude

The Dude Abides
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   Posted 1/5/2018 2:14 PM (GMT -6)   
greatguy,

After reading more of your comments, you thinking appears, to me, very linear/compartmentalized. That is: "If I do X, then Y will happen." or "X is bad." Most things in life are just not that simple. What's true today is only true until it's disproved. Also, our beliefs of what's "good" or "bad" is limited to our (often incomplete) understanding of said item. For example, inflammation. Inflammation is a necessary process that assists in healing. Unchecked, runaway inflammation is a different matter, entirely.

The Dude

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 1/5/2018 3:28:15 PM (GMT-7)


Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32695
   Posted 1/5/2018 2:16 PM (GMT -6)   
greatguy said...
Fluoroquinolones

I would not take those abx myself. Ruptured tendons happen while on those. But these are just a class of abx, most people on doxy, zithro and flagyl won't get any life threatening illness.



Again, yes you can get life threatening illness.

Flagyl has a black box warning because of mice/rats getting bladder cancer from it.

(most likely the dose was unusually high)

Zithromax can cause Long QT syndrome (which can be fatal)

Not sure about doxy...

Bactrim can cause Steven Johnsons syndrome - which can be fatal.

AGAIN - I am not trying to scare anyone away from abx....but it's not true that they don't come with risks attached.
Life-altering/threatening occurrences are NOT common.

"If one turns-on the evening news (which, I do not recommend), then they would presented with plenty of reasons to never drive a car (deadly crashes), never turn-on their stove (deadly house fires), or never have a shower (deadly slips-and-falls). "

Yes, so true, Dude.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 1/5/2018 3:19 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree with Girlie. I'm not by any means against antibiotics and they obviously have their uses. But ignoring their dangers is not a healthy way to go about using them. I agree that we need to be able to have complex discussions around the issues so that people who legitimately need them, like Lyme patients, can get access. But they are far from benign. Even without direct toxicity their impacts on our microflora are hardly characterized. But it's intuitive that assaulting what is essentially an extension of our own being is hardly something to be taken lightly. It is a known fact that mice born in sterile environments are severely compromised. While antibiotic use is obviously not so extreme, it does beg the question of long term impacts on immunity and resistance to both chronic and acute illness down the line. Again, i fully support the use of antibiotics for many conditions. But a discussion does need to be had about their dangers.

greatguy
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 3:53 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree with all of you, i agree completely with the Dude, i have a linear solution, because i'm not a doctor and i've been ridiculed by a lot that i have lyme disease. What i'm left with other than fight for my terrible health and get every drug/supplement i can get just to regain my health and life back?

Missouri
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 337
   Posted 1/5/2018 4:12 PM (GMT -6)   
I feel ya man. I quickly discovered that it was stupid of me to tell a handful of people that I was considering getting tested for Lyme. I wish I would not have told anybody except my wife. It angers me that the cabal has been able to create such an environment like this.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32695
   Posted 1/5/2018 4:20 PM (GMT -6)   
greatguy said...
I agree with all of you, i agree completely with the Dude, i have a linear solution, because i'm not a doctor and i've been ridiculed by a lot that i have lyme disease. What i'm left with other than fight for my terrible health and get every drug/supplement i can get just to regain my health and life back?



I am definitely not saying to stay away from antibiotics. I am taking them...now...
I have lost many symptoms since being on antibiotics. I am traveling to Washington DC to see a LLMD who treats with several antibiotics at the same time.

But, we can still be choosy. I do not want to do the Fluoroquinolones...I feel there are too many risks and the effects are devastating. That is my choice.
Others' feel that it's worth the risk...based on their symptoms...and history.

We still do have choices.

And, not everyone DOES choose the antibiotic route.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 1135
   Posted 1/5/2018 4:45 PM (GMT -6)   
greatguy said...
I agree with all of you, i agree completely with the Dude, i have a linear solution, because i'm not a doctor and i've been ridiculed by a lot that i have lyme disease. What i'm left with other than fight for my terrible health and get every drug/supplement i can get just to regain my health and life back?


I should add that my comments were not meant to be negative or a criticism. Not at all! Thankfully, you didn't seem to take them in that way, but I just wanted to be clear. smile Plus, it takes one to know one. For many years, my thinking was very similar. I thought the same linear, logical thinking that helped me obtain my education would apply to everything else in life. But, in many cases, unfortunately, it doesn't.

Also, I'm truly sorry you've been ridiculed! It's bad enough to be sick, but to be derided about it, too, is just terrible.

Hopefully, by now, you've realized that the folks on this forum care about each other - including you! In the end, what's most important is healing. The more posts you read, the more you will see there's no single path to getting better. Those that have improved/healed almost always used a variety of modalities to help them. What works for one person many not necessarily work for a different person. Plus, what may work for me today, may not work for me next week. Our internal landscape is always changing, so our approach to healing needs to remain flexible.

Align yourself with people who have your best interest in mind and stick with them. Sadly, that may not always be who you expect. But, that's okay. Put yourself first and don't worry about the rest!

Best always,
The Dude

insomniaaa
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Date Joined Apr 2017
Total Posts : 150
   Posted 1/5/2018 5:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Don't antibiotics also kill off the mitochondria of our cells? I've read that somewhere on the forum.

How about going back to the roots of antibiotics and giving us the actual fungi like the penicillin? Maybe there's less side effects.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
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   Posted 1/5/2018 5:48 PM (GMT -6)   
insomniaaa said...
Don't antibiotics also kill off the mitochondria of our cells? I've read that somewhere on the forum.

How about going back to the roots of antibiotics and giving us the actual fungi like the penicillin? Maybe there's less side effects.


I don't know if it kills off the mitochondria of our cells. Wouldn't that produce fatigue? (Doesn't mitochondria produce our energy)

I don't have fatigue...and I've been treating for 3 years now.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

greatguy
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/5/2018 5:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
insomniaaa said...
Don't antibiotics also kill off the mitochondria of our cells? I've read that somewhere on the forum.

How about going back to the roots of antibiotics and giving us the actual fungi like the penicillin? Maybe there's less side effects.


I don't know if it kills off the mitochondria of our cells. Wouldn't that produce fatigue? (Doesn't mitochondria produce our energy)

I don't have fatigue...and I've been treating for 3 years now.


I'm interested to know all your symptoms from the beginning and what has disappeared and what is still there. Can you list them?

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32695
   Posted 1/5/2018 6:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Well, not sure i want to list them all here - on this thread...I have had close to 40.

I'm down to under 10 now. (That are less than 80-90% better)

Maybe I can find an older post when I was posting about my progress. I'll see what I can find.

Found the thread:

/www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3893344

I really should update it again...a few more changes.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 1/5/2018 5:24:24 PM (GMT-7)


Fronton
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Date Joined Sep 2014
Total Posts : 443
   Posted 1/5/2018 7:23 PM (GMT -6)   
Regarding the decreased brain function, the article concludes that the test subjects (mice) brains rebounded after discontinuing the abx. Good news.
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