This is why you can't test positive

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greatguy
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/8/2018 4:17 PM (GMT -6)   
http://www.anapsid.org/lyme/lymeseroneg.html


1. Antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) are present, but the laboratory is unable to detect them.

2. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the patient is currently on, or has recently taken, antibiotics. The antibacterial effect of antibiotics can reduce the body's production of antibodies.

3. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the patient is currently on or has previously taken anti-inflammatory steroidal drugs These can suppress a person's immune system, thus reducing or preventing an antibody response.

4. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the patient's antibodies may be bound with the bacteria with not enough free antibodies available for testing.

For this reason, some of the worst cases of Lyme disease test negative -- too much bacteria for the immune system to handle.

5. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the patient could be immunosuppressed for a number of other reasons, and the immune system is not reacting to the bacteria.

6. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the bacteria has changed its makeup (antigenic shift) limiting recognition by the patient's immune system.

7. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the patient's immune response has not been stimulated to produce antibodies, i.e., the blood test is taken too soon after the tick-bite (8-6 weeks).

Please do not interpret this statement as implying that you should wait for a positive test to begin treatment.

8. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the laboratory has raised its cutoff too high.

9. Antibodies against Bb may not be present in detectable levels in a patient with Lyme disease because the patient is reacting to the Lyme bacteria, but is not producing the "right" bands to be considered positive.

goshawk
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Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 2293
   Posted 1/8/2018 4:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Gee, we should mail this to the CDC;)

greatguy
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 104
   Posted 1/8/2018 5:00 PM (GMT -6)   
The corrupt CDC you wanted to say.

sickofbeingsick00
New Member


Date Joined Oct 2017
Total Posts : 18
   Posted 1/8/2018 7:31 PM (GMT -6)   
My LLND actually spoke with one of the MD's at Igenex ( at the Boston Conference in November) about my test results. I was Igm 31I and 41+. He said that I have likely been sick too long for proper test results. Or very positive ones. LLND and I decided to treat (based on clinical diagnosis before results came in). MD at Igenex said carry on with treatment, if you are getting a reaction, that it means it is working and keep going. Point being, even the Lab MD said don't bother with more testing, just continue treating. Feels good to finally have people on my side!

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
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   Posted 1/8/2018 8:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Awesome post greatguy!

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 1/8/2018 8:35 PM (GMT -6)   
A popular theory not listed for some reason:

BB bacteria is "hiding" from your immune blood cells and taking refuge from oxygen simultaneously; therefore its no longer in your blood, but in certain organs and soft tissue with minimal blood flow.

Rikky1
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Date Joined Jun 2015
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   Posted 1/8/2018 10:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Indirect testing of lyme disease and co-infections is pointless why try to measure an indirect response when you can look for the actual DNA/RNA of the organism via FISH or PCR testing? Sure you may still draw blood that doesn't have the organism but to me you're far more likely to get a positive this way than the other way which you can see has all sorts of challenges. Thanks for posting.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 1/9/2018 9:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Rikky1 said...
Indirect testing of lyme disease and co-infections is pointless why try to measure an indirect response when you can look for the actual DNA/RNA of the organism via FISH or PCR testing? Sure you may still draw blood that doesn't have the organism but to me you're far more likely to get a positive this way than the other way which you can see has all sorts of challenges. Thanks for posting.


I wonder why is it assumed these are not accurate either?; theyve been out a long time.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33795
   Posted 1/9/2018 9:46 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Rikky1 said...
Indirect testing of lyme disease and co-infections is pointless why try to measure an indirect response when you can look for the actual DNA/RNA of the organism via FISH or PCR testing? Sure you may still draw blood that doesn't have the organism but to me you're far more likely to get a positive this way than the other way which you can see has all sorts of challenges. Thanks for posting.


I wonder why is it assumed these are not accurate either?; theyve been out a long time.


Which ones are you referring to Astro? The pcr?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5081
   Posted 1/9/2018 11:41 PM (GMT -6)   
via FISH or PCR testing
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again w/with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / repairing / fine tuning since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33795
   Posted 1/10/2018 1:21 AM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
via FISH or PCR testing


I don’t know about the FISH so can’t comment on that - but the pcr can’t be relied on because of false negatives due to the fact that the sample of blood may not have any bacteria in it - but it’s a relatively small sample.

Ive used the jello explanation . You have a big bowl of red jello (representing the blood in your body)
There are little blobs of green jello in it (representing the bacteria)

You take a scoop of the jello and you may or may not capture a green blob.
Doesn’t mean there isn’t any green jello in the bowl - just that that particular sample doesn’t have any.
So it’s negative.

Positives are not questioned - just negatives


That’s how it was explained to me a few years ago.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1351
   Posted 1/10/2018 9:29 AM (GMT -6)   
From the CDC themselves "Additionally, not all tests in the U.S. will reliably detect infection with European species. Providers who suspect European-acquired Lyme disease should request testing using a C6 ELISA assay as a stand-alone diagnostic test." Great... now what about the dozen other species of Borrelia that have been poorly studied?

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/10/2018 1:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Exactly, Psilociraptor - there are a lot of strains in the US that they can't detect - and they are blaming it on European strains? That's nothing more than a cop out, because the testing is not good enough to detect enough of the strains to catch the majority of those infected - instead the majority of those infected are getting negative results because they can't get past the required ELISA first.

Until some 'rules' are changed, this simply won't end.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

k07
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Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2537
   Posted 1/10/2018 2:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
From the CDC themselves "Additionally, not all tests in the U.S. will reliably detect infection with European species. Providers who suspect European-acquired Lyme disease should request testing using a C6 ELISA assay as a stand-alone diagnostic test." Great... now what about the dozen other species of Borrelia that have been poorly studied?


I was highly positive on c6 but negative on regular elisa. I think it’s a better test, for me anyway (-:

Psilociraptor
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1351
   Posted 1/11/2018 8:03 AM (GMT -6)   
Traveler said...
Exactly, Psilociraptor - there are a lot of strains in the US that they can't detect - and they are blaming it on European strains? That's nothing more than a cop out, because the testing is not good enough to detect enough of the strains to catch the majority of those infected - instead the majority of those infected are getting negative results because they can't get past the required ELISA first.

Until some 'rules' are changed, this simply won't end.


Well I don't think they place enough blame on the european strains given that we have them here as well and only use the american test kit. It'd be interesting to see a study that compares reactivity to WB and ELISA made with various species. Mayo's new study on Borrelia Mayonii showed a lot of cross reactivity. But there was one patient who was early/late disseminated and still negative by one WB band. I had the opposite problem. My initial VslE/pepC10 ELISA came back positive which should be more specific than whole cell lysate. But my western blot came back negative. Until I did Igenex a year and a half later. Still negative, but some bands

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/11/2018 2:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Well, we know that the sensitivity and specificity of these tests are horrid - that's been proven over and over again.

Not to mention all the games they have played during the Dearborne conference where they changed the definition (in testing results) of what Lyme really is. That's just playing dirty pool!!

But, I agree - there needs to be a test that combines both US and other strains from other countries - not just from Europe, but from other countries as well. We have a lot of people in the US that go back and forth to a LOT of different countries - so the fact that these strains are here in the US and in other countries would only make sense. They actually acknowledge this fact (that strains of diseases come from other countries besides Europe) when they calculate the flu vaccines and other things. Why not Lyme too???
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/
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