bart herx from houttunyia question

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doors12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 1/18/2018 1:07 PM (GMT -6)   
Hello again,

Well I may be a big baby with this stuff...you tell me.

I started Houttunyia a couple weeks ago and had a BIG herx when I upped the number of drops too fast. Well, I am back to 8 drops twice a day and I am not in major distress but last night I went to bed at 11pm and woke up at 2:30am. I couldn't fall back to sleep. I did notice I had to move my bowels when I woke up (sorry if TMI)

I believe the insomnia is due to the houttunyia attacking the Bart at this time. Most mornings I have noticed Bart rash streaks on my torso that are visible in the morning but tend to fade as the day goes on. (Interesting, right?) I take lunesta but when it flares it's like it doesn't matter.

I'm out of work and running out of time, so I was wondering if anyone has any feedback on how long it might take to see sleep improvements on the houttunyia? I haven't seen much feedback on this topic, I find old threads with people mentioning insomnia but there is never any follow up, so I either assume they got better rather quick or ... well I try not to think of anything else.

I believe I have had my infections for 20 or 30 years. I have been treating for over a year with herbals and some limited antibiotics (tinidazole, alinia) and I think my predominant symptoms currently are mainly Bart-esque.

I guess I just want feedback if anyone knows how quickly a Bart sleep issue can go away, and I'm wondering if I need to up the houttunyia drops to try to push through the sleep thing. I'm not really super interested in sleep remedies, since I have the feeling Bart is able to push through them all.


Thank you so much for any advice


doors12

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/18/2018 1:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Doors,
Have you had any luck with making plans to have your adrenals tested?

Odd things we learn in the course of trying to treat these infections - our "body clock" happens to have the hours of 3 - 5 am for our bowels to work. I hate this!!! I can be up at that hour for the soul purpose of needing to go because of this! It can't be changed, but understanding that this is what is supposed to be happening helps me to deal with it a little better.

I believe that insomnia from these infections kind of comes and goes without much understanding of how or why - like many of the symptoms we deal with. Sometimes we know what we did that changed the symptoms, but mostly we aren't sure. LOL. Anything to do with the brain (like the gut) is very complex, as we are very highly unique in those areas with different levels of different chemicals and bacteria (in the case of the gut). So, what helps one person may not be what the other person needs.

Hopefully more members will weigh in on this with suggestions of what helped them so you can look into it.

If your serotonin levels aren't very high, I've been using tryptophan. I take 1500 mgs an hour before bed. This is how I transitioned off of a sleep med, so it worked very well for me, but can cause serious issues for those that already have high enough serotonin levels.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

doors12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 1/18/2018 1:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Traveler!

I haven't made any moves on checking the cortisol, I am kind of mentally paralyzed. My leave runs out in about 4 weeks and therefore my insurance may change. The primary doctor I have under my insurance has been very stand-offish with me (long story) so I really don't like the idea of driving 15 miles for an appointment for her to ask about my cholesterol or something and argue with me about my complaints...it's crazy...I would ask my lyme doc but then it will all be out of pocket. I just don't know what to do right now.

I just find it odd that I started getting the bart streaks and more insomnia when I added the houttunyia. I was kinda sorta hoping that it would peak at some time and maybe some of these symptoms would start to recede. Somethings gotta give, but with my lyme journey so far every time it has gotten hopeless I have had a breakthrough that left me feeling like a big baby for worrying so much. So I suppose it is possible I will see improvement on the sleep in a month or two?

I keep wondering if I'm going to need to ask about rifampin at my next lyme doc appointment in order to push through as much Bart as I can since I don't have unlimited time or money. The good news is, I've been trying to keep up on my detox so the houttunyia fatigue and other herx symptoms aren't out of control anymore (thank you thank you!)

The serotonin thing is frustrating for me since I have an MAO methylation mutation which I believe keeps my serotonin pinned high, but with the potential to flip from high-low if conditions are right (great right?) So I tend to not put much hope in serotonin remedies for myself.

I definitely need to somehow learn to surrender a little bit more and reduce my anxiety about all of this. In the past when I was fed up with a symptom then it wasn't long before it improved. Well, I'm working on not worrying so much.


Thank you for weighing in Traveler! I'm still drawing inspiration from your healing!

doors12

Kat1000
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 670
   Posted 1/18/2018 1:40 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm using several herbs, JK being one. My sleep patterns continually change. When I diffuse lavender oil, that seems to help me sleep better.

Some people find a bath helpful before bed, or tea, or meditation. I'm using falling into bed at the end of a long day and barely have the energy to start the diffuser.

I'm also hypothyroid and that will sometimes play with my sleep, and lyme has definitely played with my thyroid, so getting that and adrenals checked is a good idea.
pos for MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017
March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and swap mino for doxy. 5/28- switch mino back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. tried LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps 1/1 30 days rifampin and burner's protocol to beat bart; borreala gone?

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/19/2018 2:32 PM (GMT -6)   
doors12 said...
Thanks Traveler!

I haven't made any moves on checking the cortisol, I am kind of mentally paralyzed. My leave runs out in about 4 weeks and therefore my insurance may change. The primary doctor I have under my insurance has been very stand-offish with me (long story) so I really don't like the idea of driving 15 miles for an appointment for her to ask about my cholesterol or something and argue with me about my complaints...it's crazy...I would ask my lyme doc but then it will all be out of pocket. I just don't know what to do right now.

I just find it odd that I started getting the bart streaks and more insomnia when I added the houttunyia. I was kinda sorta hoping that it would peak at some time and maybe some of these symptoms would start to recede. Somethings gotta give, but with my lyme journey so far every time it has gotten hopeless I have had a breakthrough that left me feeling like a big baby for worrying so much. So I suppose it is possible I will see improvement on the sleep in a month or two?

I keep wondering if I'm going to need to ask about rifampin at my next lyme doc appointment in order to push through as much Bart as I can since I don't have unlimited time or money. The good news is, I've been trying to keep up on my detox so the houttunyia fatigue and other herx symptoms aren't out of control anymore (thank you thank you!)

The serotonin thing is frustrating for me since I have an MAO methylation mutation which I believe keeps my serotonin pinned high, but with the potential to flip from high-low if conditions are right (great right?) So I tend to not put much hope in serotonin remedies for myself.

I definitely need to somehow learn to surrender a little bit more and reduce my anxiety about all of this. In the past when I was fed up with a symptom then it wasn't long before it improved. Well, I'm working on not worrying so much.


Thank you for weighing in Traveler! I'm still drawing inspiration from your healing!

doors12



Well, we know that these infections definitely mess with our ability to sleep, for some it's Lyme, for some it's Bart and for some it's Babesia.

I do hope you are right in that it's just the timing of the Houttuynia or something similar and that it's not your adrenals - just keep that in mind, in case. You don't want it to go on for a long period of time because the longer a person waits to address adrenal issues, the harder it is to climb out of that hole -and let's face it, we have enough holes to climb out of!!!


So, here's hoping that it's as you suspect and that it will clear up soon!!! But, if not, please do find a way to get some testing done, even if you have to pay for it yourself. There are some labs where you can request your own testing, and they may or may not be less expensive than what your LLMD offers. Just let us (or me) know if you need those links and we will be happy to provide them for you. You can find them here: /stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/

And please do check in and let us know how things are going!!!!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Rikky1
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2924
   Posted 1/19/2018 4:04 PM (GMT -6)   
wife has been dealing with insomnia forever due to these infections. no matter what she does she gets up around 5'ish in the morning. she was told by her LLMD the insomnia is the last thing to go. ugh.

houttuynia is very strong stuff it does a lot more than just hitting bart. Dr. MR in Seattle uses Houtt and Sida Acuta to treat Bart and has a 70% success rate.

doors12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 1/19/2018 6:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for the info Rickky! 70% success rate is pretty darn good

I was wanting to update you guys, I slept deeply last night with no awakenings lol. I have been doing OK today, even though I took 10 drops of houttunyia this am...I had some moderate fatigue but laying down and taking it easy seemed to help. I am not sure how I will do taking 10 drops again tonight, I'm sure I'll have to up my detox, probably take an Epsom salt bath tonight.

The fact that my sleep problems cycle always makes me suspect the infections vs cortisol but I do feel the adrenal health is critical also.

I really appreciate the responses on HW, just want to encourage everyone to post especially since I seem to spend all day looking at the message board (which my significant other chides me for)

I pray for health and comfort for each of us,

Doors12
Positive test for lyme disease antibodies, brucella, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, mycoplasma 2015
Pancolitis Ulcerative Colitis (Mild to Moderate) dx in 2006 diagnosis changed to acute infectious colitis 2015
3/2014 heterozygous mthfr
Herbal treatment with addition of Alinia/tinidazole

doors12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 1/19/2018 6:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler

I just saw your reply, it's my Lyme head acting up again lol.

I'm hanging in there, at least I slept pretty well last night and an ok day today despite increasing my drops. I have a question - is the link for thyroid tests or the saliva cortisol? I glanced at the page and it didn't seem to have any clear choice for the saliva testing. I did have thyroid labs ran at the start of treatment and once more, but I'm sure things can change.

Do you think treating bartonella, even with the hout, effects the adrenals specifically?
I just wonder because I've read about rifampin and adrenals.

Thank you traveler, I hope you are having a great day!

Doors12
Positive test for lyme disease antibodies, brucella, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, mycoplasma 2015
Pancolitis Ulcerative Colitis (Mild to Moderate) dx in 2006 diagnosis changed to acute infectious colitis 2015
3/2014 heterozygous mthfr
Herbal treatment with addition of Alinia/tinidazole

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/19/2018 8:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Doors!
YAY!!! I'm glad you got some good sleep!! It helps so many things!! I too had a better day today! Hoping that I too can get back on track and healing again soon. Herxing just s*cks. LOL.

Actually, if your sleep issues cycle - then it's most likely more due to your infections, rather than adrenal issues specifically. I would encourage you to continue to work hard to find whatever you need to sleep good every night, but realize it's a process.

If you (or anyone else) wish to use these tests, the link takes you to a page where several labs are listed, and if you click on those links, it will take you to the tests, and yes, adrenal as well as thyroid and other testing is available, without your doctor needing sign it.

Here is one of the lab sites, so you can take a look:
/www.directlabs.com/sttm/OrderTests.aspx


No, I don't believe that houttuynia has any direct affect on the adrenals, but with the way things are now listed in searches (net neutrality issues), I can't hardly find any of the sites I'm used to having available. It would be best to check with a highly qualified herbalist that REALLY knows this herb before assuming there is no effect though.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Rikky1
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2924
   Posted 1/19/2018 8:32 PM (GMT -6)   
traveler how is the net neutrality rules affecting you finding websites?

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/20/2018 1:39 PM (GMT -6)   
The sites that I used to use all the time are extremely hard to find now with just a Google search like before. I used to just type in something like: "Houttuynia, medicinal qualities" and I'd have 3 - 5 trusted sites show up within the first 3 pages - on this search alone, I went to page 15 and still couldn't find even one of my trusted sites. This has been happening more and more in the last weeks.

Those sites that don't get preferential treatment (not sure if they pay, or what), will not get put up to the front of the line, essentially.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

doors12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 2/5/2018 10:39 AM (GMT -6)   
Update:

I had been trying to stabilize my dosage of houttunyia at 20 drops as it seemed that most of the fatigue/anxiety/balance issues had subsided but my sleep still had been a problem.

I am trying to return to work before my leave time runs out at the end of next week and I was going to go back this week but I don't know if that's going to happen.

I even bumped up to 2mg lunesta but I am falling asleep around 10 or 11pm and have been waking up at 1am. I still had a few 1mg lunesta tablets, and I have resorted to taking those at 1am when I wake up. It works and I go back to sleep, but I can't see how I can hold a job like this.

I have an appointment with a new primary care doctor today and I plan on calling my LLND back. I don't even know what to ask at this point. I have reduced the houttunyia drops to 13 this morning. If I were to be put on 3mg lunesta I have no idea if that would be enough or if I would still wake up in the middle of the night needing something...but it might work and get me back to work.

When I wake up lately I just have a small amount of night sweat on my chest near the thymus area and my neck. I have been detoxing with lemon water, sasparilla/burber and epsom bath but it just seems like the infections are responsible for waking me up at night now that they are being attacked.

So, I guess I have possibly one more week to try to fix this sleep issue to a reasonable situation. I don't want to entirely stop the houttunyia because I need to get better and I'm sure rifamipin would make it even less likely for me to hold a job, but I would be willing to back way down on the drops if that might help.

I figure at this point it is in God's hands but I really value the knowledge and experience here...anyone have any good ideas? Should I check into Ambien CR or 3mg lunesta or back the houttunyia off?

I'm trying not to be too scared over here...

doors12

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 2/5/2018 11:47 AM (GMT -6)   
Doors, you've been at this a while, right? Maybe it's time to have your adrenal function and thyroid function tested if you haven't? If your adrenals are starting to slow down, that could be why you wake up at 1 am so much. It's just a thought!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

doors12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 2/5/2018 12:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you traveller, I will surely mention to the primary doctor today and see if I can get anywhere with them. Yes I've been on the houttunuyia about a month. I think it must be the other coinfections I have that are making it so hard for me...

Thank you so much Traveller!

doors12
Positive test for lyme disease antibodies, brucella, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, mycoplasma 2015
Pancolitis Ulcerative Colitis (Mild to Moderate) dx in 2006 diagnosis changed to acute infectious colitis 2015
3/2014 heterozygous mthfr
Herbal treatment with addition of Alinia/tinidazole

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 2/5/2018 12:31 PM (GMT -6)   
I hope that you don't have issues with adrenal functioning, but if you do, at least it's an answer and there's something you can do about it! If you get tested for adrenal issues, be sure that it's a saliva test where it's collected at least 3 times in one day - anything else will not tell you how well they are holding up, it will only be a 'snap shot in time' of how they are doing in that moment.

As for thyroid testing, be sure that you have T3, T4, Free T3 and Free T4 tested.

Soooo many doctors get this wrong!!!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Intuition
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 55
   Posted 2/5/2018 2:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Doors12,

I have not been diagnosed with Bart or any other co-infections (just Lyme by IgeneX) but recently started a 2 month protocol with Houttunyia and CSA formula "just incase." I've been dosing 1/2 teaspoon of Houttunia twice daily from the beginning and didn't notice much of a herx or any side-effects. This could just mean that I, in fact, do not have Bart or Babs. In reference to sleeping issues, I religiously take an over-the-counter sleep aid each night (diphenhydramine / Benadryl). Regardless of symptoms, it always knocks me right out and I sleep pretty well for 6-8 hours+
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