Can You Take to Many Buhner Herbals?

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Loutucky
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Date Joined Nov 2014
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 1/24/2018 12:56 PM (GMT -6)   
I stopped antibiotics almost 4 months ago and started the Buhner Bartonella, Babesia and Neuro-Lyme protocols. It is slow going for me but I've worked up to 1/8-1/4 tsp of most of the herbals 3X a day and I still take the anti-malarial Malarone.

I take everything in these protocols except Sida acuta (serious allergy), Andrographis, Arginine, Isatis and Glycyrrhiza. I am switching Japanese Knotweed to Stephania because of estrogen and eye issues. It's still a lot of herbals.

I know these herbals work in synergy but do you think they are all necessary? I may have to back off the dosages because I have felt bad the whole time no matter how much detox I do. I will never get up to more than 1/4 tsp of anything. I do not plan on increasing any herbal and see if I start to turn the corner.

I'm just worried that on such low doses they will not help me. Years of antibiotics didn't help.

1000Daisies
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Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2438
   Posted 1/24/2018 2:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Loutucky said...
I stopped antibiotics almost 4 months ago and started the Buhner Bartonella, Babesia and Neuro-Lyme protocols. It is slow going for me but I've worked up to 1/8-1/4 tsp of most of the herbals 3X a day and I still take the anti-malarial Malarone.

I take everything in these protocols except Sida acuta (serious allergy), Andrographis, Arginine, Isatis and Glycyrrhiza. I am switching Japanese Knotweed to Stephania because of estrogen and eye issues. It's still a lot of herbals.

I know these herbals work in synergy but do you think they are all necessary? I may have to back off the dosages because I have felt bad the whole time no matter how much detox I do. I will never get up to more than 1/4 tsp of anything. I do not plan on increasing any herbal and see if I start to turn the corner.

I'm just worried that on such low doses they will not help me. Years of antibiotics didn't help.


We have done low doses, and over long period of time, we have seen improvement for some of us. We went way slower and way lower than most people here on this board.

Kid#1 is well for nearly a year now. His last symptom to go was flu-like flares every few weeks. We did periodic hbot and some of Buhner's lyme herbals (lower dose than what most people do) near the end of his treatments, and he's well nowadays.

I no longer am chasing after those higher doses. I no longer believe it needs to be higher doses to heal. I think it's completely variable for people.
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

Loutucky
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2014
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 1/24/2018 2:53 PM (GMT -6)   
1000Daisies, I appreciate your response and am glad to hear that you and your children are doing better. It helps me knowing that you did lower doses and have seen improvement.

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 1/24/2018 3:52 PM (GMT -6)   
I did a lot, I think.
Japanese Knotweed
Red Sage
Skullcap
Hawthorn
Motherwort
Cat's Claw
Astragalus
Reishi
Cordyceps
Cryptolepis
Red Root
Mc-BB-1
Tox Ease
NAC
Houttuynia
Gou Teng
Andrographis

I'm probably forgetting something

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32667
   Posted 1/24/2018 4:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Most people on the herbals are taking many daily.

I was supplementing my antibiotic treatment and even then I was taking several.

At one point: JK, Hawthorn, Cryptolepis, Sida Acuta, Alchornea cordifolia, Greater Celandine, Kudzu, Pinella and Burbur, plus the non-herb supplements: magnesium, vit.d, B12, L-Arginine, L-Lysine, B complex, Vita C, CoQ10, etc. etc.

I'd have to go look in my cupboard to see the rest.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 1/24/2018 5:08:40 PM (GMT-7)


PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 1/24/2018 4:31 PM (GMT -6)   
As for your initial question - Can you take too many herbals? The answer is yes.

Herbals are medicine just like pharmaceuticals. You can take too many and get sick or sicker.

How I knew to stop taking my herbals was, I was symptom free for about 3 months. Then I got super sick to my stomach. I had not been exposed to anyone or any thing that could have gotten me sick. Everyone I knew was not ill.

I finally figure out that I would stop the herbs (I was planning on it anyway and was symptom free) and viola, my sickness went away.

Herb free from that day on.

Loutucky
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2014
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 1/24/2018 4:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie & PeteZa, you both were definitely on many things so I feel more comfortable with my kitchen pharmacy.

PeteZa, I've got a feeling that it will be quite some time before I become symptom free. I'm very happy the herbals worked for you. I'm just hoping for a couple good days in a row!

cakegirl
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2016
Total Posts : 254
   Posted 1/24/2018 5:52 PM (GMT -6)   
One of the Buhner herbalists told me that Buhner never meant for folks to take more than about four herbs at a time.

PeteZa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 9729
   Posted 1/24/2018 6:10 PM (GMT -6)   
I could see the possibility of 5, but no less than that.

Protecting endothelial structures - recommended 1 herb

Cytokine remodulation - recommended 2 herbs

Collagen protection - maybe this is not considered an herb

Immune remodulation - I don't know how many he recommends for this. Minimally I guess 1, I did 2.

Antispirochetal - recommended 1 herb

What about treating for Babs and Bart at the same time???? That would mean more herbs also.

I would question that herbalist again cakegirl.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32667
   Posted 1/24/2018 6:10 PM (GMT -6)   
cakegirl said...
One of the Buhner herbalists told me that Buhner never meant for folks to take more than about four herbs at a time.


Really? But in his books - even the Bartonella core protocol has about 10 listed.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Loutucky
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2014
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 1/24/2018 6:22 PM (GMT -6)   
His neuro-lyme protocol uses more than 4 herbals. If I treat one disease at a time I would be constantly switching the protocols as one becomes more dominant causing symptoms.

Maverick6981
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 160
   Posted 1/24/2018 7:48 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm at work right now, but I specifically remember him saying in the chapter on the core protocol that, "Yes, take all of these."

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/25/2018 11:51 AM (GMT -6)   
The thing is, it's highly dependent on not only the patient, but on the practitioner as well. Everyone has their own opinion of 'what's best'.

That being said, someone that needs to address more than one infection at a time, will, obviously, need to be taking more herbs. As long as it's tolerated, they don't cross react, and the person's body is coping with it all, it should be fine, although monitoring closely would be a necessity.

Using only 4, 5 or 6 herbals at one time would mean that many would simply never heal. We often need help with detoxing, supporting the body as well as protecting from the damage that these infections can cause - and that's not to mention any herbs that are for a more "direct treatment" of the bacteria (or whatever) itself.

This is far too complex to be saying that what one doctor said to one patient stands for all patients - unless we are talking about something that may be dangerous, like steroids, not detoxing or other things that are not so specific to one person, but issues nearly all of us face.

PeteZa (I hope you don't mine if I use you as a good example!) is a good example of someone that never had serious issues with detoxing, and yet I can do the exact same things as she does, and have a serious issue because I'm simply not helping my body to detox enough. The examples abound, so let's be careful to not get hung up on the individuality of these infections and what they do to each person.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Kat1000
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 666
   Posted 1/25/2018 12:10 PM (GMT -6)   
I've been supplementing antibiox with herbal. I just finished my last round (I hope) of rifampin.

Current herbals 2x a day: red root, hawthorne, JK, Samento, houttinya, sida acuta, stevia (for flavor), skullcap. I just reordered and will finish with JK, Houttinya and sida.

On days where I've had bad flares, I didn't take anything. For me it helped to let everything calm down and then resume. I try to do as much detox as I can.

I am down to a few bad days a month instead of a few good days a month. However, I'm still limiting exercise and physical activity so not sure what will happen when I try and start up again.
MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017; March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and mino/tini. 5/28- back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. tried LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps. On and off rifampin. 1/1/18 - 1/20 rifampin. Herbs and vitamins only now.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/25/2018 12:17 PM (GMT -6)   
"I am down to a few bad days a month instead of a few good days a month. However, I'm still limiting exercise and physical activity so not sure what will happen when I try and start up again."

Congratulations, Kat!!!! turn It's a wonderful feeling when you realize that you have more good days than bad!!! I do hope it only continues to improve for you!!

Remember, as you start to exercise and such again, to go slow and give yourself time to recover as needed!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Kat1000
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 666
   Posted 1/25/2018 12:30 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Traveler! My bad days are pretty bad, so I don't know what to think. I go to the doctor mid-month in Feb and will see what he says. He talked about starting me on Biopure. I may try that since I've been doing some of these herbs for a while now.

I'm also not sure if my fatigue is lyme/bartonella or just my life, which is pretty darn crazy!

I do feel I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel. It may be my pure determination and stubbornness to get well! I'm also continuing with acupuncture, massage, oils. I think I may need those forever.
MTHTR single mutation; Positive Igenix IgG Jan 2017; March/Apr '17: doxy, Tinizadole. 5/1 samento and mino/tini. 5/28- back to doxy, added activated charcoal. 6/9 - stopped antibiox; staying with samento, red root and houttiya and supps. tried LDN; 8/24 rifampin, samento, red root and supps. On and off rifampin. 1/1/18 - 1/20 rifampin. Herbs and vitamins only now.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/25/2018 12:38 PM (GMT -6)   
All we can do is take it one day at a time and see what we can find that will help us get back to being fully functional. I hope that you are nearing that time soon!!

With all the time I've spent herxing over the years, I can tell you that when I herx now, I'm not in a good mood at all. LOL. I'm just so tired of it all. So, if you are herxing, I can certainly relate to those bad days. I still just have some bad days too, usually when things get crazy here too! LOL!

Do your best to be kind to yourself and pace yourself as you come back - bad days happen for everyone, and with these infections, it's all proportional.

A different approach might be just what you need! I wish you luck with the doc has to say! Please do let us know!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Loutucky
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2014
Total Posts : 431
   Posted 1/25/2018 1:50 PM (GMT -6)   
I really appreciate everyone sharing their experience. It helps to encourage me!
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