Soft tissue Catabolism from Lyme > leaky gut, high cortisol, VS normal Anabolism, &DMSO

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astroman
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   Posted 1/25/2018 11:31 AM (GMT -6)   
My Lyme related muscle weakness and tendon aches have improved a lot, but I still ponder the cause of it. I have not read any direct Lyme related explanation besides nerve issues. Its not always nerve issues doing this though - although that seems to be a good scape goat, and is partially to blame but not fully if you have mentioned symptoms.

We know Lyme can cause: leaky gut, high cortisol, anxiety, insomnia - you may have some or all of this, and all can contribute to body weakness and soreness/pain. OK, But how?

One way is this messes up your metabolism, more specifically the normal states of Anabolism and Catabolism.

Catabolism is the normal state of muscle breakdown during muscle use. Its partially and normally triggered by high cortisol during stress or physical endurance, but can also result from lack of needed nutrition levels or leaky gut. Sustained high cortisol (the people buzzing and shaking in the AM or PM) will keep the body in Catabolisim mode.

Anabolism is the soft tissue rebuilding process. This requires normal healthy sleep patterns and normal cortisol levels to occur.

**A test I did four years ago: Traces/markers of Muscle Catabolism was actually mentioned in additional last three pages of "lab notes" from a Genova E-val test I did. This test has a boat load of information, with 19 pages of charts/ranges and paragraph information. "Catabolism" was apparently easily brushed over by my LLMD looking for more common things. I finally goggled it a while ago, and believe this is part of the picture of my past pain.

---------------------------------------

A short explanation for all this is a body's metabolisim stuck in "Catabolism mode" will essentially consume itself, resulting in weight loss, inability to gain weight and weakness/aches/discomfort.

Notes from being my own guinea pig: As my lyme receded, cortisol also improved with less anxiety and sleep improved. Now working out actually results in strength gains again. The "switch" was not activated overnight and is still in process, but its all very noticeable. I believe trials of a clean diet also helps this, but was not the sole factor. Leaky gut was a factor in strength and possibly influenced cognitive issues as well.

I have also tried different levels of protein, its obvious to me I feel better with adequate low fat protein.

/www.diffen.com/difference/Anabolism_vs_Catabolism

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/12/2018 6:44:53 PM (GMT-7)


Traveler
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   Posted 1/25/2018 1:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Astro, what about lowered testosterone levels? Isn't that a part of the muscle wasting as well? I know that these infections can really mess with our hormone levels.

I lost a LOT of my muscle mass at one point in time, but it did return after years of working on my health.

I'm curious, have you ever considered pine pollen for hormone balancing?

Interesting subject though! Thanks for posting about it.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

astroman
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   Posted 1/25/2018 1:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Pine pollen - no. Should I roll in my front yard LOL? (covered in snow for a while though).

I will read up on that though.

My testosterone was only low when TSH was over 15 from thyroid med shortage in '09 (thanks FDA), I used to monitor that. I still had weakness after testosterone improved. Good point though.
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again but also with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / repairing / fine tuning since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

Traveler
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   Posted 1/25/2018 1:47 PM (GMT -6)   
LOL!!!! Buhner talks about it in one of his books - I have too many of them to remember which one, but if you would like, I'm sure I can find it easily enough.

I assumed my muscle wasting was from the lack of testosterone (as well as other hormones at the time), but was never tested. None of the doc's around here would agree to do that kind of testing for me without me explaining why - and then I'm asked to leave. LOL. You know, I dared mention the "L" word (Lyme)!!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

bluelyme
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   Posted 1/26/2018 5:51 PM (GMT -6)   
For me the onset of a quick cancer like aids wasting occured when i pissed bart off with a sulfa and the subsequent vasculitis and nerve damage caused a horror like freakshow of soft tissue loss. Although my gut was not able to absorb protiwn or fats thanks to hpylori and giardia ...the actual tissue damage is eithe buggs eating collegen literally or from the lps of the cell walls damaging neighboring healthy cells ....maybe herxing to hard is it ...astro start with gut(have you done adequate testing ,not quest or labcorp?) ....but get bart and heal your nerves imho

astroman
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   Posted 1/26/2018 7:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Blue- My gut is awesome now, and my strength has been improving tremendously these last two years - still healing/repairing muscles.

I'm just geeky enough to still partake in solving this past pain mystery even though I'm feeling better.

For anyone experiencing muscle issues- this info might help them, since it seems LLMDs are clueless in how all this works.
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again but also with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / repairing / fine tuning since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/26/2018 6:17:12 PM (GMT-7)


Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
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   Posted 1/26/2018 7:18 PM (GMT -6)   
lyme literally invades and destroys collagen. That is the root cause here of muscle weakness, muscles wasting, and connective tissue damage with lyme.

http://iai.asm.org/content/72/6/3138.short

Somebody said...


Borrelia burgdorferi Binds to, Invades, and Colonizes Native Type I Collagen Lattices


ABSTRACT

Borrelia burgdorferi binds strongly to the extracellular matrix and cells of the connective tissue, a binding apparently mediated by specific proteins and proteoglycans. We investigated the interactions between B. burgdorferi cells and intact type I collagen using hydrated lattices that reproduce features of in vivo collagen matrices. B. burgdorferi cells of several strains adhered avidly to these acellular matrices by a mechanism that was not mediated by decorin or other proteoglycans. Moreover, following adhesion to these matrices, B. burgdorferi grew and formed microcolonies.

The collagen used in these studies was confirmed to lack decorin by immunoblot analysis; B. burgdorferi cells lacking the decorin adhesin bound readily to intact collagen matrices. B. burgdorferi also bound to collagen lattices that incorporated enzymes that degraded glycosaminoglycan chains in any residual proteoglycans. Binding of the bacteria to intact collagen was nonetheless specific, as bacteria did not bind agar and showed only minimal binding to bovine serum albumin, gelatin, pepsinized type I collagen, and intact collagen that had been misassembled under nonphysiological pH and ionic-strength conditions.

Proteinase K treatment of B. burgdorferi cells decreased the binding, as did a lack of flagella, suggesting that surface-exposed proteins and motility may be involved in the ability of B. burgdorferi to interact with intact collagen matrices.

The high efficiency of binding of B. burgdorferi strains to intact collagen matrices permits replacement of the commonly used isotopic binding assay with visual fluorescent microscopic assays and will facilitate future studies of these interactions.

astroman
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   Posted 1/26/2018 8:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Well we know lyme likes connective tissue, since there is less blood there (less oxygen and less immune cells). I was on Flagil (the deep ammo) and herxed like crazy on it. I think that definitely is part of it, but not the sole reason in every case.

Strangely, supplemental collegian support (several methods) never did anything positive for me, and my actual joints were good.

Muscle "ends" and connective tendons around/near joints were my main issues, which are hard to repair (takes forever, not much circulation there). Collegian support sups should still help tendons though (?). Everyone talks about the Great Lakes brand- it did nothing for me on two months, was a bummer....So I continue to work the heck out of my muscles and tendons, manually for circulation, followed by strength training.

That fact that my Dr and myself completely overlooked the word "Catabolism" in one of my test results is what sent me off reading about it. Malnutrition from leaky gut and high cortisol (had both) will also do this (might be part of what fibros also experience).
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again but also with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / repairing / fine tuning since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 841
   Posted 1/26/2018 8:55 PM (GMT -6)   
any idea on how to reverse excessive catabolism?

astroman
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   Posted 1/27/2018 12:18 AM (GMT -6)   
Lapis_29 said...
any idea on how to reverse excessive catabolism?


The million dollar question. Obvious first step is to correct the causes.

The end result of tissue damaged from catabolisim and /or bacterial consumption cant be that much different........its damaged tissue that was inflamed and probably scared over.

I would assume the shorter the time frame of infection and the body being out of whack, the more likelihood of the body healing itself after the infection is stopped. Although its said the body wants to heal, scar tissue is a major blockade.

Scar tissue in chronic muscle and fascia injuries can be easily detected by a trained masseur and most experienced chiros - if its not far under the skin. I had it everywhere just under the surface of my skin. So it must be deeper to- which is very hard to detect and work on.

Obviously in time, muscle can be re-built from working out individual areas. But tendons are a b/tch! I am lucky my joint tissue seems pretty good. Once my muscles got a little loser, my joints loosened up and got quieter- less muscle stress/tension on them.

Scar tissue in muscle makes rebuilding much more challenging, as the tissue has physically changed. Ive used many manual methods and "tools" to work out the scar tissue areas- aggressive self trigger point massage, active release ect, and muscle scraping. Dry needling does not work well over large areas, to much time, too many needles, not much progress. Its older relative, Acupuncture, is more for nerves, not healing scar tissue.

"Muscle scraping" also makes it possible to gauge my below surface scar tissue improvement (Gua Sha /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gua_sha). As the muscle tissue heals, it gets smoother, quieter and less red when "scraped". Sounds crazy, but this has been helping the last two months. Its just repeated friction over the skin and does not hurt much vs the temporary visual results which look much worse than it feels.

Once the lumpy and crunchy muscle scar tissue heals and is more flexible/stretchable, its much easier to re-build/strengthen via gym/weights ect.

When tendon tissue hardens from scaring it can be detected on MRIs. Conventional medicine has a term for it that pretty much means its dead, but its not really dead. It need's forced circulation, and there's not much there to begin with. I use the plugged toilet analogy. Applied force unplugs it.

Cross friction which can help with muscle, does not help with tendons. But longitudinal friction does. Surprisingly you can be pretty aggressive with a scared up tendon, but it just seems like the last thing you want to do. Working on my Achilles tendons freaks me out, since I kind of need them to walk. My shoulder tendons are better after two years of me using various trigger point tools, counter tops and door jams LOL. Conventional medicine suggested several surgeries,no thanks, they dont do anything right the first time. Just did full shoulder/arm circles stretches,..no more snapping sounds anymore. One is still weaker though.

Back to Collegian...it should help tendons rebuild. I dont understand why the Great Lakes brand (the best I tried) did nothing for me that I could notice. Lysine had no noticeable effect either. Any supplements that work on tendons? let me know.

I use g/f, dairy free plant protein before and after weight workouts - it helps. I don't intentionally do cardio for the sake of cardio. I ski and bike a little, because I like it, not because its cardio. I ran in the past. Wont do that again unless someone is chasing me.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/26/2018 11:40:40 PM (GMT-7)


Eiren
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Date Joined Aug 2017
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   Posted 1/27/2018 5:47 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for investigating this astroman.

My issue basically boils down to chronic tendinitis everywhere. Has my GP utterly flummoxed.

Just to clarify - did you ever have noticeable inflammation or swelling?

My problem is that my body looks totally fine. I just hurt on the inside - for some reason no one can figure out. I'm totally negative for RA, so....

I did have some swelling in my ankles after a stupid PT gave me heel spurs and achilles tendinitis. Stupid PT deserves to have me make a formal complaint about her, but the heel spurs and swelling did validate my pain to my GP, so there's that.

Does an MRI show the tendon/muscle scaring? Or an ultrasound? I'm not super-eager to be slid into the Star Trek machine, but I am curious to know what exactly is going on inside me (and show why the stupid PT was so stupid).

I do take gelatin and msm every day. No magic cure from them. But maybe without them I would be worse? Hard to say. I did give up on glucosamine/chondroitine, just not convinced they're worthwhile.

I'm a woman, so I naturally have low testosterone. I did read somewhere that people think the reason Fibro mostly effects women is because of the estrogen dominance.

Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
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   Posted 1/27/2018 8:52 AM (GMT -6)   
dmso does wonders for scar tissue. I had some scar tissue in my shouler, been there for 20 years. Just recently started applying DMSO and it definitely dissolving. here is a study

Somebody said...


Effects of DMSO on a rabbit ear hypertrophic scar model: A controlled randomized experimental study.


Sari E1, Bakar B2, Dincel GC3, Budak Yildiran FA4.

Abstract

Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is an anti-inflammatory, antibacterial, analgesic drug widely used to treat several diseases as reported in the literature. It has a detractive effect on collagen deposition in the abnormal tissue. This study aimed to investigate the possible therapeutic effects of DMSO on hypertrophic scar formation in rabbits. Twenty-four New Zealand male albino rabbits were randomly divided into four groups: control, sham, DMSO, and TRA (triamcinolone acetonide).

Except the control group, punch biopsy defects were created on each animal's right ear. Following the hypertrophic scar formation on day 28, intralesional DMSO and triamcinolone acetonide were administered once a week for 4 weeks into these scars of the DMSO and TRA groups, respectively. No therapeutic agent was administered to the control and sham groups. One week after the last injection, ear samples were collected for histopathological, immunohistochemical, and real-time polymerase chain reaction gene expression analyses. Histopathological examination revealed that the epithelium in the DMSO group was thicker than that in the control and TRA groups, but thinner than that in the sham group.

Connective tissue thickness and vascularity level of the sham group were higher than those of the control, DMSO, and TRA groups. The collagen type I immunoreactivity level of the sham and TRA groups was higher than those of the control and DMSO groups. The collagen type III immunoreactivity level was higher in the sham group than in all other groups. Collagen type I/type III immunoreactivity ratios were lower in the DMSO group. The alignment of collagen fibers was normal in the DMSO group, but was irregular in the sham and TRA groups.

The collagen type I gene expression levels of the DMSO and TRA groups were lower than that of the sham group. Collagen type III and IFN-γ mRNA expression levels were almost similar among the groups. TGF-1β mRNA expression levels were higher in the DMSO and TRA groups than in the control and sham groups.

On the basis of the results, it can be concluded that intralesional administration of DMSO decreases hypertrophic scar formation easily and safely.

Lapis_29
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   Posted 1/27/2018 8:57 AM (GMT -6)   
something else to look at for scar tissue is astragaloside IV. This study shows it both accelerates wound healing and prevents scar tissue. I think it would be interesting to dissolve some Astro IV is some DMSO and apply that topically. In fact I think I will try that.

/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874111008439

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 1/27/2018 11:45 AM (GMT -6)   
Eiren said...
Thanks for investigating this astroman.

My issue basically boils down to chronic tendinitis everywhere. Has my GP utterly flummoxed.

Just to clarify - did you ever have noticeable inflammation or swelling?

My problem is that my body looks totally fine. I just hurt on the inside - for some reason no one can figure out. I'm totally negative for RA, so....

I did have some swelling in my ankles after a stupid PT gave me heel spurs and achilles tendinitis. Stupid PT deserves to have me make a formal complaint about her, but the heel spurs and swelling did validate my pain to my GP, so there's that.

Does an MRI show the tendon/muscle scaring? Or an ultrasound? I'm not super-eager to be slid into the Star Trek machine, but I am curious to know what exactly is going on inside me (and show why the stupid PT was so stupid).

I do take gelatin and msm every day. No magic cure from them. But maybe without them I would be worse? Hard to say. I did give up on glucosamine/chondroitine, just not convinced they're worthwhile.

I'm a woman, so I naturally have low testosterone. I did read somewhere that people think the reason Fibro mostly effects women is because of the estrogen dominance.


What I learned about four years ago is we cant do PT at the "standard rate" if out tendons or certain muscles are tight from scar tissue or adhesions. You cant just stretch the stiffness out of these areas. I had to "work" it out manually. Friction and pressure creates circulation (healing and flexibility) when it was previously cut off. Ive done all sorts of manual tissue work, now on myself. Always open to new ways of tissue healing, so far nothing else works.

I looked fine from the outside to, but I had major range of motion issues and anyone experienced in tissue "feel" could feel the scaring in my surface muscles- this is easy to learn.

Ive never had the low testosterone "softer" body type that some men can develop, I'm kind of the opposite. A few years ago I did lose some of the lean bulk I had and recently put 8 lbs of good mass back on. I try to avoid soy for this reason though.

Both MRI's and ultra sounds work off of tissue density. Scar tissue is more dense and can show based on the settings- but its not ideal to use these machines for this. Its just subject to the opinion of the experienced viewer Dr/Tech ect. Even thyroid ultra sounds can show high density scaring in hashimoto thyroids.

Since ultrsound is a frequency it can be used as a healing to, I bought one and I did not find it too effective. scarsandspots.com/what-is-therapeutic-ultrasound-for-scars/

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/27/2018 4:43:52 PM (GMT-7)


astroman
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   Posted 1/27/2018 12:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Lapis_29 said...
something else to look at for scar tissue is astragaloside IV. This study shows it both accelerates wound healing and prevents scar tissue. I think it would be interesting to dissolve some Astro IV is some DMSO and apply that topically. In fact I think I will try that.

/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874111008439


"Astragaloside IV is the chief ingredient of Radix Astragali, which has been used in the Traditional Chinese Medicine as a major component of many polyherbal formulations for the repair and regeneration of injured organ and tissues. This study is to investigate the influence of astragaloside IV on both of the wound healing and scar formation."

Sounds good. I'll have to goggle away on it. Keep us posted if you try this as a combo. Did DMSO alone do anything for you?

DMSO freaked me out at first, since its a chemical. I have the brand with the palm tree on the plastic bottle, which I learned here is not safe.

I forget the one in a glass bottle which was suggested????. Maybe I should start again with the safer one, the other did not do anything.

I really need something to help deep in my hip flexors and side of glutes- so many layers there I cant get to besides the surface ones.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/27/2018 11:30:22 AM (GMT-7)


Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
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   Posted 1/27/2018 4:31 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Lapis_29 said...
something else to look at for scar tissue is astragaloside IV. This study shows it both accelerates wound healing and prevents scar tissue. I think it would be interesting to dissolve some Astro IV is some DMSO and apply that topically. In fact I think I will try that.

/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874111008439


"Astragaloside IV is the chief ingredient of Radix Astragali, which has been used in the Traditional Chinese Medicine as a major component of many polyherbal formulations for the repair and regeneration of injured organ and tissues. This study is to investigate the influence of astragaloside IV on both of the wound healing and scar formation."

Sounds good. I'll have to goggle away on it. Keep us posted if you try this as a combo. Did DMSO alone do anything for you?

DMSO freaked me out at first, since its a chemical. I have the brand with the palm tree on the plastic bottle, which I learned here is not safe.

I forget the one in a glass bottle which was suggested????. Maybe I should start again with the safer one, the other did not do anything.

I really need something to help deep in my hip flexors and side of glutes- so many layers there I cant get to besides the surface ones.


That's Astragalus!! I've been using that for a few years now, so maybe that's why I'm doing better!

www.shen-nong.com/eng/herbal/huangqi.html
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New set of infections 8/2014 - still treating.
Come visit me: dogwoodtraditionals.freeforums.net/

Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 841
   Posted 1/27/2018 4:39 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler said...
astroman said...
Lapis_29 said...
something else to look at for scar tissue is astragaloside IV. This study shows it both accelerates wound healing and prevents scar tissue. I think it would be interesting to dissolve some Astro IV is some DMSO and apply that topically. In fact I think I will try that.

/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874111008439


"Astragaloside IV is the chief ingredient of Radix Astragali, which has been used in the Traditional Chinese Medicine as a major component of many polyherbal formulations for the repair and regeneration of injured organ and tissues. This study is to investigate the influence of astragaloside IV on both of the wound healing and scar formation."

Sounds good. I'll have to goggle away on it. Keep us posted if you try this as a combo. Did DMSO alone do anything for you?

DMSO freaked me out at first, since its a chemical. I have the brand with the palm tree on the plastic bottle, which I learned here is not safe.

I forget the one in a glass bottle which was suggested????. Maybe I should start again with the safer one, the other did not do anything.

I really need something to help deep in my hip flexors and side of glutes- so many layers there I cant get to besides the surface ones.


That's Astragalus!! I've been using that for a few years now, so maybe that's why I'm doing better!

www.shen-nong.com/eng/herbal/huangqi.html


yes, thats a great herb. good link

i wonder what percentage of astragalus is composed of astragaloside IV?

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 1/27/2018 4:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Hmm. I never heard of Astragalus for tissue healing. I have some capsules for tick deterent.

astragaloside IV :

This is the only one I've found so far thats a liquid and could be applied prior to DMSO for internal (muscle) scar tissue healing: www.iron-dragon.com/astragaloside-iv-20mg-ml-60ml

/www.medchemexpress.com/Astragaloside-IV.html

From Iron Dragon link, this stuff regrows nerves in Parkinsons patients: "Neuronal fiber length studies showed that massive neuronal cell death with degenerated neurons was observed in those cultures incubated with 6-OHDA, whereas in AS-IV co-treatments most dopaminergic neurons were seen to be intact and sprouting…. Besides the neuroprotective effect, AS-IV alone promoted neurite outgrowth and increased TH and NOS immunoreactive of dopaminergic neurons. The neuroprotective and neurosprouting effects of AS-IV are specific for dopaminergic neurons and it has therapeutic potential in the treatment of PD.[8]"

I wonder how different this is from regular Astragaus tincture?

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/12/2018 6:42:08 PM (GMT-7)


astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 2/12/2018 7:43 PM (GMT -6)   
bump
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again and with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / fine tuning / fixing muscles since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

bluelyme
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Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4714
   Posted 2/13/2018 4:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Any body got a bit coin i could borrow for some hgh and some fetal stems ? now that i stopped the collagen destruction ....come on astro i just need 1...totally good 4 it ...
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