Okay, so give me some ideas about my test results

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Eiren
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 58
   Posted 2/12/2018 2:42 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm googling, but it's not answering my questions.

So here goes:

9/16/2016 - EM documented. Started doxy (100mg 1x day, 12 days).

9/20/2016 - B.B.s.l.(EIA) IgM 2.46 [Positive], IgM blot [Positive] (p41, p39, OspC B.B. sensu stricto, B. afzelii, B. garninii, B. spielmanii). IgG 4.1 [Negative], IgG blot [Negative] (No bands).

[9/20/2016 follow-up test on 11/22 - B.B.s.l.(EIA) IgM 2.39 [Positive], IgG 5.4 [Dubious] What is this? Why is the follow-up test numbers different??]

11/22/2016 - B.B.s.l. (EIA) IgM 2.34 [Positive], IgG 2.8 [Negative].

5/16/2017 - B.B.s.l. (EIA) IgM 5.00 [Positive], IgG 2.1 [Negative].

7/13/2017 - Lyme Total (EIA) 0.65 [Negative], IgM (blot) Positive (p100-, VIsE-, p58-, p41+, p39+, OspA-, OspC+, p18-), IgG (blot) [Negative] (no bands).

In the notes of the July test the doctor helpfully noted the persistent IgM without seroconversion to IgG. He also noted he thought the reason for this non-conversion was because I was treated. Really?

I am in Europe, and the only study I've found so far that seems directly relevant to me is this one /www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2012/719821/. But I'm not sure how relevant it is.

So, I had EM, I had IgM, I had bands 41, 39, and OspC for over 6 months.

Why no seroconversion? Why the lack of any bands on IgG?

Could the lack of conversion explain why I still have lingering symptoms?

Or am I just extra-special like that?

Wait- now I'm finding old threads about this /www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=1831783. Any new ideas since then?

Post Edited (Eiren) : 2/12/2018 1:02:29 PM (GMT-7)


Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33795
   Posted 2/12/2018 2:52 PM (GMT -6)   
Band 39 is Lyme specific .

With most diseases, the IgM seroconversion to IgG happens within weeks but with Lyme IgM can persist for years.
I don’t have my links handy - but Dr J has written about this on his website.

Persistent IgM can be active infection with Lyme not necessarily a new infection.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Eiren
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 58
   Posted 2/12/2018 3:01 PM (GMT -6)   
This Dr J?

lymemd.blogspot.nl/2009/12/igm-question-is-it-chronic-lyme-disease.html

lymemd said...

Peer reviewed literature relevant to the issue is scant. Steere discussed the IgM persistence issue more than 20 years ago. He found persistent antibodies of both the IgM and IgG class many years after initial infection. IgeneX has found that 2 specific IgM or IgG specific antibodies is equivalent. Aucott has found that 20% of patients with treated acute Lyme are unable to produce IgG antibodies, likely a genetic variable. Existing literature supports the idea that certain Western Blot antibodies are highly specific for Lyme. If specific antibodies are present it is unlikely they are the product of a false positive test. When only IgM antibodies appear there is a alternate hypothesis. The persistence of IgM antibodies may suggest the immune system is "chronically" seeing Borrelia as an acute--new infection. This interpretation is applied in other situations. For example EBV. IgM EBV antibodies are frequently interpreted as evidence of reactivation of the infection.


I'm in the 20%! I guess I am extra-special! lol.

But, I developed IgG to EBV, so.... ???? Maybe not a genetic thing?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33795
   Posted 2/12/2018 3:12 PM (GMT -6)   
Well we certainly see it more often than that here (20%)


Here's what Dr. J (not the same Dr. J - but the one in Under Our Skin) says:

"In virtually all infections, the IgM class of antibody (immunoglobulin) appears first and therefore represents a marker for an early infection. In most immune models, the IgM antibody gives way to the well-known IgG antibody class, usually regarded as the major enduring antibody response in chronic infectious diseases or other immune models. In almost all infection models, after just a few weeks, the IgM antibody level wanes to the point of being non-detectable and does not recur. However, a confounding fact in Bb infections is that the IgM antibody may persist for years, a very unusual situation in most disease states. Logically, one would have to conclude that this reflects an ongoing reactivation or persisting and continually renewing infectious state of Bb infection. Most active diagnostic laboratories involved with LD tend to agree with this notion."


jemsekspecialty.com/laboratory-testing-for-lyme-disease/
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Eiren
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 58
   Posted 2/12/2018 3:18 PM (GMT -6)   
And a new blog post lymemd.blogspot.nl/2017/12/all-i-got-was-41-band-all-i-got-were.html

So he's saying that I may have some IgG bands, but they're under 60%, and therefore not counted?

Hmpf.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33795
   Posted 2/12/2018 4:28 PM (GMT -6)   
You had an EM plus Lyme specific band 39

No need to question your symptoms being lyme
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Eiren
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 58
   Posted 2/13/2018 7:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
You had an EM plus Lyme specific band 39

No need to question your symptoms being lyme


I'm not really questioning, just trying to understand what's going on.

I thought IgM=Active and IgG=Past was clear, so I guess now I know why my doctors were always so vague and non-enthusiastic about my results. Apparently nothing is logical with the general medical understanding of Lyme. eyes

"Logically, one would have to conclude that this reflects an ongoing reactivation or persisting and continually renewing infectious state of Bb infection. Most active diagnostic laboratories involved with LD tend to agree with this notion." "

^ Anyone know any further (mainstream) documentation on this? My GP is open to me bringing in English-language studies as long as it's from a source she finds credible. She's open to prescribing me more doxy, we're just not sure if it's worth it right now (I find it really hard to stomach). Considering the persistent IgM, would more abx make a lot of sense for me?

bluelyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4891
   Posted 2/13/2018 10:15 PM (GMT -6)   
welcome.... congratualadolences...see the ilads print outs and copy burrascansos treatment guide ...also the work of richard horiwitz is cutting edge he is trying to educate the french www.lymenet.org/BurrGuide200810.pdf look into rife bvt and herbs ...abx is not the only way

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33795
   Posted 2/13/2018 10:25 PM (GMT -6)   
I suggest you see a LL Dr as non Lyme Literate dr’swon’t treat you long enough even if they do recognize chronic lyme.

Maybe if you show your Dr Dr J’s website it would help- he’s an Infectious Disease specialist - who treated hiv/aids patients prior to Lyme.

Not everyone chooses abx - but - yes they are an option for chronic lyme - regardless of the IgM.
Many (maybe most?) of us with chronic Lyme who are positive - it’s on the IgM
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 2/13/2018 8:32:12 PM (GMT-7)

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