Your Genes are step #1 in root cause of your illness (my ramblings for non-gene geeks)

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astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 5:07 PM (GMT -6)   
Newbies might be a little overwhelmed to see this as you might still be freaked out in calming your infection, but you might find this interesting when you are feeling better. Some people would rather not get into this, just more on their plate, its complicated, and might be fearful in some cases. That said, 23andme is a great tool for self de-coding your genes. No this in not an add for them LOL.

The Drs of the future who get to root cause will be geneticists. Some LLMDs , NP's, ect try this, but only on the surface level, as the big picture is pretty difficult to mentally flow chart out. Used to be a lot more gene talk here, seems to come and go. MTHFR gets all the attention. There are plenty of others which deserve attention. They are finding new gene "traits" everyday from human surveys.

Our specific genes have everything to do with chronic illness, and why some are more healthy (or seem to be as genes are also stealthy- the marathoner who falls over dead brushing his teeth).

**Why am I mentioning this? Because your infection alone is not the root cause, but its a good start and should have positive health effects when controled. If it were the only cause, everyone bite by a tick would be sick. There are even people who continuously test positive for tick infections in the logging industry but dont have symptoms - their genes and chemistry dont allow it to happen. Body chemistry can change though as its also a product of food, hormones, stress, and environment.**

Chronic illness is made possible from: Ospa , B marker cells, T-cells, natural killer cells, inflammation,autoimmune and pathogen response, gut health, food, psychological and physical environment, hormone response (stress) and bio-chemistry. These are all effected by your specific gene code and vice versa. The bad ones are a switch sometimes waiting to get flipped "on" - thats what cancer clearly is. Genes are why some smokers live, some die, some alcoholics kill their liver, yet some live a long time. Chronic Lyme vs acute lyme is no different.

There are recognized genes for sleep, memory, different versions of hyper tension, BP, anxiety, candida infection, depression, sugar carb and fat metabolism, autoimmune, immune T cell control, liver and brain methelation cycles (personality)- everything inside of us. That's why the short term aid/supplements for sleep or brain fog is not the same for all people here.

I always find it funny how the phyc Drs Rx chemical meds by guessing for mental issues, but thats the fastest way for now, bypassing root cause. "Mental issues" are an end product of everything mentioned in this post but sometimes combined with past memories which make more of an influence on some people vs others (genes for that too).

Anyway, Ive been goggling many genes lately. The good ones too(double copies shown in green by many decoding sites), for some positivity. As far as the bad ones in my case, I have found many that partially explain part of what has happened to my body. If the defective gene switches were not there, I believe this would not have happened.

The more negative switches you have, the greater the possibility of chronic illness and is why some of you have been here a long time. This is why the risk of re-infection exists in the first place, controlling the infection does not fix your genes, but changing your diet and environment can help and put less pressure on the "bad gene switches". Some bad switched genes may be possible to "change direction" with supplements - not to promising yet. If I were 20, the time invested would be well worth it with more pay-off.

I have yet to find one great web site where all the gene info is located, hopefully this will happen in the future. I've seen a lot of flow charts in the past, these methalation and cycle flow charts could improve in many ways too.

I bring all this up because we now are developing the tools to get better (gene decoding), but have few good mechanics (Drs) to apply them.

The famous lyme Drs are behind the times. Yes they can control the illness but not stop it from returning, so at best they offer the best "band-aid".

The the Naturalpath and Functional Drs claiming to "cure" autoimmune issues with diet as root cause, they are helping to positivity influence your health by accommodating the gene "switch" stuck in the bad position. Yes it helps, but its not always root cause when we have issues with even natural foods, chemicals as food are not natural though.

A few of the best cancer Drs do use special Rx chemicals to persuade cancer immune genes. I personally know someone who is still living because of this non-conventional treatment - they persuaded his genes to cure his cancer 20 years ago, this cost a lot and was not an insurance covered option, its not entirely new in some cancer treatment for those with money to pay for it.
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again and with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / fine tuning / fixing muscles since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/18/2018 4:06:54 PM (GMT-7)


BabsBunny
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   Posted 2/18/2018 6:27 PM (GMT -6)   
I’ve been thinking the same thing lately. Googling “Epigenetics” is both fascinating and terrifying (if physicians don’t know how to handle this, we’re doomed!)

I’m trying to get to the bottom of my issues without throwing a ton of drugs at it, but I still believe I need help with interpreting results and figuring out which drugs or supps are going to interact with each other. Without trained people to (affordably) do that, can we ever get better?
Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella. Symptoms began 5/2016, didn't start treatment until 9/2016. Slow but steady recovery.

*twitch twitch*

magoo2
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   Posted 2/18/2018 6:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Since we are born with our genes and they don't change how come a person can have 50 years of good health before they get sick-the genes didn't change?

Girlie
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   Posted 2/18/2018 6:44 PM (GMT -6)   
magoo2 said...
Since we are born with our genes and they don't change how come a person can have 50 years of good health before they get sick-the genes didn't change?


I know, right?


For me, it happened at a very stressful time in my life - but interestingly enough, I didn't have an increase in colds/flus...or any other ailments...


Maybe we have the 'bad' genes...but we are fine until the exposure to the bacteria.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

readingmom
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Dr. Shoemaker was recently interviewed on Lyme Ninja Radio. He is very interested in the role that genes play in chronic illness. It got very technical for me, and I had to listen it more than once but it has made me pay more attention to this area.
http://lymeninjaradio.com/dr-ritchie-shoemaker/[url]

magoo2
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:19 PM (GMT -6)   
If we had bad genes they would be there from day one.

I think looking at genes doesn't help anyone-I think the research points to looking at what turns on and off certain genes. I believe epigenetics is the study of what turns on and off certain switches(genes)

astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:29 PM (GMT -6)   
magoo2 said...
Since we are born with our genes and they don't change how come a person can have 50 years of good health before they get sick-the genes didn't change?


As I noted a few places, "bad" genes are not always "switched on", they need something to switch them on. It could be said, you are born with some bad genes almost on. Like a parked car neutral on a slight incline- lean on it an it starts to roll. These illness have a huge "weight" impact on a bad switch we were born with.

If the "bad switch genes" were not there to begin with or if the good genes overpowered the bad ones (this is possible, a tug of war between good and bad genes) these infections could be delt with by our properly functioning immune systems.

Example: If someone was born with the suppressed T-cell gene I made a post on a couple days ago, you might not know till some real strong infection comes along.

Another example: I have one of the four newly found autoimmune thyroid genes (not to be confused with the two thyroid antibodies) which I was obviously born with. But I was not born with Hashimoto. Lyme or possibly even Scarlett fever possibly switched the "bad switch thyroid gene" "ON", creating hashimoto antibodies twenty years ago as a young adult.

In the case of man made super ticks, if this is true, maybe only the best "super genes" will overcome it, or maybe never we dont know yet.

astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:36 PM (GMT -6)   
magoo2 said...
If we had bad genes they would be there from day one.

I think looking at genes doesn't help anyone-I think the research points to looking at what turns on and off certain genes. I believe epigenetics is the study of what turns on and off certain switches(genes)


Yes they were there from day one, thats what I'm saying.

Looking at genes is a little to advanced, but that is #1 the root cause, the title of my post.

What causes the bad genes to switch on is one step down, #2 cause. WEe are pretty much at step two right now.

Did you read about my cancer friend? They cured him at root cause step #1, so this is not flawed thinking. We just are not that far yet.

We can treat at step 2 (epigenetics), its very difficult to figure out, but that is not complete, its the best most can do for now.

magoo2
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:39 PM (GMT -6)   
I think you are better off to worry about what turns the switches? Diet-PH-Heavy metals-infections

astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
magoo2 said...


Maybe we have the 'bad' genes...but we are fine until the exposure to the bacteria.


Yes.

I realize I get kind of long winded is some of my posts as I like to cover the details, but this is in a nutshell the point I'm conveying.

astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 7:46 PM (GMT -6)   
readingmom said...
Dr. Shoemaker was recently interviewed on Lyme Ninja Radio. He is very interested in the role that genes play in chronic illness. It got very technical for me, and I had to listen it more than once but it has made me pay more attention to this area.
http://lymeninjaradio.com/dr-ritchie-shoemaker/[url]


Yes he is clearly on to it.

The common mold test HLA something gene.......well there are a small handfull of HLA genes, they are all "switchable bad genes", none are good as far as I read.

The mold is the weight that pushed it down. If those genes were never in someone to begin with, mold might not might not cause illness. I imagine that this is the puzzle he is trying to put together as there are more than one gene here for mold.

astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:00 PM (GMT -6)   
magoo2 said...
I think you are better off to worry about what turns the switches? Diet-PH-Heavy metals-infections


For now yes, but you have to IDENTIFY the bad genes first, which many don't bother with.

Then try to turn the switches off if possible. There is more influencing the gene switches than just the infection, so its not so easy to figure out. I listed a whole sentence of possibilities which need to be looked at. I have met people on ABX for 5-10 years, still sick. Clearly they need to address something else besides the infection. Most do, some dont. Hello?

Fact is, as long as we have any bad "switch genes" they will need attending lifelong, otherwise its always possible to get turned on again, that why so many get re-infected. Or live in a bubble with ZERO tick or biting insects around. I prefer to live out of a bubble, but that presents a lot of caution and strict eating (great).

I am not telling people what to do, I'm just explaining the gene facts here as easy as I can, in a less technical manner, as some dont know/understand this info.

Note: I think the T cell gene in my other post is obviously important, but I have not read than in any lyme info? I stumbled accross it looking at my genes. I have double copies so I'm positive for it, guessing it switched off quite some time ago.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/18/2018 6:09:47 PM (GMT-7)


readingmom
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, but he also mentioned how he was able to determine about 700 abnormal genes in patients with Lyme. After giving these patients a 3 week course of antibiotics the abnormal gene number went up into the 800s. He gave patients the drug VIP (vasoactive intestinal peptide) and their abnormal gene numbers went down to double digits (20 and below). These are patients that had positive Western Blots. He did not include patients with positive IGENEX results.

k07
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:11 PM (GMT -6)   
readingmom said...
Yes, but he also mentioned how he was able to determine about 700 abnormal genes in patients with Lyme. After giving these patients a 3 week course of antibiotics the abnormal gene number went up into the 800s. He gave patients the drug VIP (vasoactive intestinal peptide) and their abnormal gene numbers went down to double digits (20 and below). These are patients that had positive Western Blots. He did not include patients with positive IGENEX results.


I listened to this last week. Very alarming. I looked into the genetic test he is now doing and it was almost $2k. I am following his protocol now. Once I’m free of MARCoNS I will do VIP.

k07
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Astroman - I’m in total agreeance with you. Genes get “dirtied” by infections, stress, environment, etc. It is so complicated and our bodies have a lot of work around mechanisms. You may enjoy Ben Lynch’s new book - Dirty Genes. I have ran my raw data through his stratgene program too.

astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:18 PM (GMT -6)   
readingmom said...
Yes, but he also mentioned how he was able to determine about 700 abnormal genes in patients with Lyme. After giving these patients a 3 week course of antibiotics the abnormal gene number went up into the 800s. He gave patients the drug VIP (vasoactive intestinal peptide) and their abnormal gene numbers went down to double digits (20 and below). These are patients that had positive Western Blots. He did not include patients with positive IGENEX results.


Thats pretty indepth. He's switching genes off and on with antibiotics (wow), or he's looking at antibody levels?

I dont know how you measure a gene being on or off, you have one copy or two. Two is positive so its there, and always will be. The copies have nothing to do with it being on or off.

This is Interesting. He cant make them go away. Gene reports say what ones you have but dont say if they are on or off at the time you tested for them. I wonder how they read that?

I would appreciate a link from where you read that if available.

**EDIT- I now see you put a link up there, thanks**

I have not read any famous lyme Drs doing this....? Cool.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/18/2018 6:29:26 PM (GMT-7)


astroman
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:19 PM (GMT -6)   
kO7- link, pod cast or you tube? must be what reading mom saw. I'm excited to see this.

2K gene test is a little more than the 23andme $99 special a few years ago. I wonder if this also shows if bad genes are also "on or off"- as he somehow interprets this according to readdingmom (big wow).

Hey- I found my Nueroquant report this afternoon, only took three weeks to find it LOL. I dont have mold symptoms now, but might have in 2015 when this was done. I'll plug in the numbers this week.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/18/2018 6:27:36 PM (GMT-7)


k07
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:24 PM (GMT -6)   
It’s very difficult to follow. Shoemaker himself kinda drives me nuts but you can tell he’s pretty brilliant.

lymeninjaradio.com/dr-ritchie-shoemaker/

readingmom
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:31 PM (GMT -6)   
Astroman, he did not refer to turning genes "on" and "off." I heard the interview on Lyme Ninja Radio and have had to listen to it twice. I will probably listen to it again. I am not sure what he was measuring to determine how the genes went from abnormal to normal, but he was really excited about this study.

k07
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:40 PM (GMT -6)   
His testing of genes is different. He says “A word about what our genomics test is not. Our test differs from those that merely measure one’s genetic sequence, such as 23andme or methylation profiles. Instead, we are looking at dynamic gene changes, not just the stationary genetic structures of DNA. No one can look at genetics alone and tell if a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) is active or not.”

www.survivingmold.com/news/2017/04/progene-dx-pathway-to-certainty-part-1/

www.survivingmold.com/news/2017/04/progene-dx-path-to-certainty-part-2/

WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Astroman,

Much thanks for starting this discussion and providing info. I haven't listened to the Shoemaker talk yet, but I plan to. He is into genomics. Genetics like 23&me tells you what genes you have (were born with). Genomics testing will show which genes are activated (the ones where the switches have flipped "ON").

I was tempted to do the test, but it's too early. Cost is too high and few doctors would understand what to do with the data at this point. Docs can contact him to ask questions for a nice fee too. If I do it, it will be after the price is reasonable and docs become proficient. That will take a while, I'm sure.

But yes, doctors of the future will be doing this. There will be ethical challenges too.

Rikky1
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   Posted 2/18/2018 8:44 PM (GMT -6)   
haven't found 23andMe results all that useful to be honest. i had my data looked at by a special doctor who interprets what you need to supplement to give your body the best chance at having everything it needs to be optimal.

so i got recommendations for some supplements, did it for a few months and it didn't do squat. i could've saved a few hundred by running the genetic info through an online program and gotten pretty much the same results.

WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 2/18/2018 9:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Rikky1 said...
haven't found 23andMe results all that useful to be honest. i had my data looked at by a special doctor who interprets what you need to supplement to give your body the best chance at having everything it needs to be optimal.

so i got recommendations for some supplements, did it for a few months and it didn't do squat. i could've saved a few hundred by running the genetic info through an online program and gotten pretty much the same results.


From what I understand, 23&me identifies the genes you have. They may or may not be activated. Unless you know which ones are activated, then supplementing could be unnecessary or a crapshoot, it seems.

magoo2
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   Posted 2/18/2018 9:16 PM (GMT -6)   
Then try to turn the switches off if possible. There is more influencing the gene switches than just the infection, so its not so easy to figure out. I listed a whole sentence of possibilities which need to be looked at. I have met people on ABX for 5-10 years, still sick. Clearly they need to address something else besides the infection. Most do, some dont. Hello?

Chronic lyme-is there anyone in the world that thinks it only about the infections?

Ive said this before but there are reasons why you got chronic lyme and others not and its not just an unlucky tick bite. I really dont think its genes either-I think its about looking for what factors wear you down and addressing each and every one of them. Does that turn on or off switches-maybe. Does it lead to better health-most likely

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 2/18/2018 10:38 PM (GMT -6)   
The "root" cause is not a matter of genes, but ecology. Ecology is the only discipline that integrates interspecies interactions and environmental chemistry with genomics, transcriptomics, proteomics, metabolomics, etc. It is the full scope of processes that are involved in the stability (health) of complex biological systems. The designation of many of these gene polymorphisms as "bad" is highly arbitrary if not flat out incorrect. Evolution is very efficient at fine-tuning genomes over time. The very high prevalence of many of these "bad" genes implies that they are historically advantageous at best or neutral at worst. The genetic risk in acquired chronic illnesses comes largely from displaced genomes, not "bad" genes. In other words, down syndrome mutations CAUSE down syndrome. SCID is SCID no matter where you are or what you eat. Genes impacting acquired chronic illnesses are not like this. They don't cause disease, they influence risk and outcome. They negatively influence health when placed in conditions to which they are not well adapted. It's not simply a matter of epigenetics or "masking" the bad gene either as many times each variant has a potential trade-off that is desirable. For example mutations of CCR5 receptor gives immunity to HIV but exacerbates tick-borne encephalitis virus. Thus whether it is "bad" or not depends on whether you live in an area where HIV is more prevalent or an area where TBEV is more prevalent. Or whether you have other genes that influence the risk of either. Either variant performs the basic function and the trade-offs are weighed by external selective pressures. So I don't see the value in labeling genes as the root cause. Or "step 1". They act in concert with the environment.

I mean, I agree with some of the sentiment. Eating well and good lifestyle habits are central to health. But again this doesn't just happen at the level of gene expression, but the ecology level which includes everything else.
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