Doxy plus Knotweed = effective against round body form?

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TheRhythm
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 27
   Posted 2/21/2018 7:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi,
I'm taking lots of Japanese knotweed as well as some other antiinflammatories, and I was wondering if I added Doxycycline, if it would be effective in the long term. I have read that although Doxy kills active spirochetes pretty well, it increases the round-body forms, aka the dormant cyst forms, two-fold.

If I am taking Japanese Knotweed along with it (and artemisia), will it somehow prevent the cyst forms from forming? Or will I just have to be "content" with sending the bacteria into dormancy?

Or are there other pharmaceutical antibiotics that are more effective?

FYI- A long time ago I tried Doxy + Mepron + Azithromycin + Bicillin injections with absolutely no result for my Lyme and Babesia infection. However, I wasn't at that point taking Buhner's herbal protocol. Now I am, and I hope the combination of the two will be effective.

PS- Black Walnut hull seems to be helping, too!

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33957
   Posted 2/21/2018 8:13 PM (GMT -6)   
There are two pharmaceuticals that are used for cyst busting:

Flagyl and Tinidazole.

Flagyl has a black box warning because rats/mice were given flagyl and developed bladder cancer.
They extended that warning to Tinidazole because it's a similar drug.


Some LL dr.'s use GSE for cyst busting.


...and don't forget about the biofilms.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

TheRhythm
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 27
   Posted 2/22/2018 11:39 AM (GMT -6)   
Buhner cautions against aggressively breaking up biofilms and says that it is not necessary.

I'll look into GSE.

Have people found success in treating long term (~10yrs) Lyme with Doxy + herbs?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33957
   Posted 2/22/2018 1:43 PM (GMT -6)   
TheRhythm said...
Buhner cautions against aggressively breaking up biofilms and says that it is not necessary.

I'll look into GSE.

Have people found success in treating long term (~10yrs) Lyme with Doxy + herbs?


I'm not sure if I'd want to leave the biofilms alone...as at some point, I'd think they'd open up and release more spirochetes...and then you'd be dealing with it then.

I don't know about 10 years of treating lyme with doxy and herbs. I don't know anyone (that I can remember) who has treated 10 years.
I'm curious - Why are you asking about 10 years of treatment?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

TheRhythm
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 27
   Posted 2/24/2018 1:04 PM (GMT -6)   
No no, I've HAD lyme for 10 years. Gosh, I would hate to be on herbs + antibiotics for that long.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33957
   Posted 2/24/2018 1:56 PM (GMT -6)   
TheRhythm said...
No no, I've HAD lyme for 10 years. Gosh, I would hate to be on herbs + antibiotics for that long.


Okay - silly me. tongue


10 years IS a long time. Although, I know several people approaching 5 years now... And I'm over 3 years now.. sad
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33957
   Posted 2/24/2018 1:59 PM (GMT -6)   
TheRhythm said...
Buhner cautions against aggressively breaking up biofilms and says that it is not necessary.

I'll look into GSE.

Have people found success in treating long term (~10yrs) Lyme with Doxy + herbs?


So to answer your question correctly now.


Yes, many people found success in treating a longstanding lyme infection...but not sure about doxy with herbs. Most of the people I know who healed with herbals weren't also taking doxy.
I don't think it would have an adverse affect (adding the doxy)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Xabian
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 50
   Posted 2/24/2018 8:03 PM (GMT -6)   
TheRhythm said...
Buhner cautions against aggressively breaking up biofilms and says that it is not necessary.

I'll look into GSE.

Have people found success in treating long term (~10yrs) Lyme with Doxy + herbs?


Buhner believes that long term use of herbals break biofilm, hence why he doesn't find adding a biofilm buster to his protocol necessary. He also states that it doesn't hurt to add one, so why not? I also have read that some people have success adding lumbrokinase to Buhner's protocol.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33957
   Posted 2/24/2018 8:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Someone posted this (quoting Buhner)


"I am not a big fan of the biofilm hysteria that is common among the lyme community right now. ALL bacteria form biofilms. It is just a grouping of bacteria together in one location and the formation of a kind of rigid structure, similar to coral formation in the oceans, that they use to protect themselves. This is just ONE of a great many mechanisms bacteria use to protect themselves from immune responses or antibacterial substances and so on. It is no more dangerous or important than the bacterial ability to use efflux pumps to remove antibacterial substances from their cells or to use the immune system itself to hide from assault. Most herbal medicines are effective against biofilm formations just as are most immune systems. A biofilm may slow down effectiveness of immune response or herbal antibacterials but it does not stop them. It is not the terminator of bacterial protection. Biofilms have been around for eons and plants and immune systems have developed mechanisms for dealing with them. I would not worry about them as of being of particular importance in becoming healthy."


Here's the thread it's in:

/www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3855328
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Rikky1
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2925
   Posted 2/24/2018 9:09 PM (GMT -6)   
I've been on biofilm busters (Xylitol and Lactoferrin) for over a year and am not stopping even though my protocol is switching to persister cell and Bartonella focused.

There's a lot more research these days on biofilms and seems the overarching feeling is they need to be addressed. Buhner even addresses it though not indirectly since he says the herbs bust them up.

It makes sense really as bacteria are using it to survive by shielding themselves against the body's defenses. They want to survive, we don't want them to cause they make us ill so you have to root them out.

TheRhythm
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 27
   Posted 2/25/2018 1:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Brilliant Buhner quote, Girlie, thank you.

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1353
   Posted 2/25/2018 2:17 PM (GMT -6)   
"There's a lot more research these days on biofilms and seems the overarching feeling is they need to be addressed. Buhner even addresses it though not indirectly since he says the herbs bust them up."

I think the point here is that it is important, but it's not more important than any other angle. Researchers are concerned about biofilm because they mostly rely on conventional antibiotics which are single target therapies (in theory). Herbs tend to be multipronged by nature. They tend to inhibit spreading factors, adhesins, invasins, quorum sensing, DNA synthesis, etc. Antibiotics generally target ribosomes, cell wall synthesis, OR DNA synthesis with a few exceptions. Conventional medicine is just learning to make up for what they lack by identifying one problem... and then another... and then another. That said, not all herbs bust all biofilms. So I don't quite agree with Buhners lax perspective either. If you're not getting where you want, it's a worthy thing to spend some focus on.

In regards to knotweed... there is no evidence to my knowledge of it's effectiveness on any borrelia, biofilm or not. That said... my personal experience is that it works very well. Cryptolepis and Sida acuta work very well for my disease temporarily and then it becomes tolerant and they stop working no matter how much I take. To my knowledge they both contain cryptolepine which is inhibits DNA and RNA synthesis. This is usually bacteriostatic and only works on active cell metabolism leaving it prone to drive persister cell formation like conventional antibiotics. This doesn't happen with knotweed for me. Every time I take more I herx more and then I feel even better when i stop herxing. If i had to guess I would say knotweed probably does have some action on persister cells and biofilms whereas the others tend to drive it in to these states. But that's a total guess based on my personal experience with treatment responses. I'm just making up stuff to justify my experience like everyone else. There really is very little hard data on these things in respect to Lyme.

TheRhythm
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 27
   Posted 2/25/2018 2:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
This doesn't happen with knotweed for me. Every time I take more I herx more and then I feel even better when i stop herxing.


That's great to hear. It really does work long-term, and I am just beginning to see that. It's crazy. It's amazing how certain herbs (like knotweed) shine as a *process*-oriented herb rather than a boom-your-done kinda herb where you take it short term.

The only thing I worry about with taking it for such a long time is being dependent on it. But I imagine that once I'll be able to start exercising again, that will take the place of the herbal medicine.

Psilociraptor
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1353
   Posted 2/25/2018 3:31 PM (GMT -6)   
Yeah I understand that. That's one of my gripes with it. It has done wonders for everything but my neuro symptoms. I suspect it doesn't penetrate the nervous system as well as buhners says. But maybe it's just my experience. What I'm driving at is those little bugs are clearly there and every time I stop taking knotweed it all comes roaring back. Starting with nerve symptoms and then spreading elsewhere. So dependency is an issue for me so far. Sida and crypto caused the worst neuroherxes. I thought it was game over for those little ******s but like I said they just stopped working. No more herxes, no more improvement. Nothing.
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