Question on Immune Health while having an Infection

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Hoagie
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Date Joined Jul 2017
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   Posted 3/2/2018 3:41 PM (GMT -6)   
I had my follow up visit with my LLMD on Wednesday. He was surprised at how good my lab results were. I still suffer fatigue, motor issues, tinnitus, brain fog, and neuropathy. But most of my levels are good and I have had 2 cd57 tests within the past 2 months. First one was super high. The most recent was around 140.

My immune system looks good he said. We are hitting this heavily with abx now. But I am a tad confused about all this. Dr Rawls believes that Lyme patients need to get their immune system up to par and allow that to keep the critters in check. Hiwever, mine is already up to par. Makes me wonder is what I'm battling is truly lyme/coinfections. If they are, shouldn't my immune system be taking a hit?

LymeSick 🌟
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 3/2/2018 4:15 PM (GMT -6)   
I think this could possibly explain what's going on:

LymeDisease.org said...
The bacteria initially trigger a strong immune response in an infected animal, but findings from this study indicate that the bacteria soon cause structural abnormalities in “germinal centers” — sites in lymph nodes and other lymph tissues that are key to producing a long-term protective immune response.For months after infection, those germinal centers fail to produce the specific cells — memory B cells and antibody-producing plasma cells — that are crucial for producing lasting immunity.


The article is here if you want to read it :

/www.lymedisease.org/lyme-subverts-immune-system-ucd/

Hoagie
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Date Joined Jul 2017
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   Posted 3/2/2018 4:35 PM (GMT -6)   
LymeSick 🌟 said...
I think this could possibly explain what's going on:

LymeDisease.org said...
The bacteria initially trigger a strong immune response in an infected animal, but findings from this study indicate that the bacteria soon cause structural abnormalities in “germinal centers” — sites in lymph nodes and other lymph tissues that are key to producing a long-term protective immune response.For months after infection, those germinal centers fail to produce the specific cells — memory B cells and antibody-producing plasma cells — that are crucial for producing lasting immunity.


The article is here if you want to read it :

/www.lymedisease.org/lyme-subverts-immune-system-ucd/
Thank you for that

I am in the midst of a 2 week long herx type session. So, that kinda made sense to me. But, not sure I entirely grasped it. What I understand the article to mean is that the lyme will initially cause an immune response, but then back off. But it will affect the cells that are produced for lasting immunity.

However, I was bit almost two years ago. My immune system has seemingly, through testing, remained strong. Yet, my motor functions continue to decrease along with increased fatigue, brain fog, and anxiety. Wouldn't it be because of a faltering immune system that these areas would be affected? Or can they be affected even with a seemingly healthy immune system?

I guess I don't have a great grasp on the concept of the article. From the article I gathered that the immune system would be compromised in the long run. But isn't it at that point where people would get the most symptoms? Once the immune system starts failing?

I may need some spelling out here... sorry.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33873
   Posted 3/2/2018 4:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Hoagie - What markers are they using to asses your immune system?

I have always wondered about the fact that we (lymies) have a lowered immune system. I never get sick..no flus and maybe one cold since I've been sick (over 4 years)

You'd think with a lower immune function we'd get sick often...
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5085
   Posted 3/2/2018 5:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Symptoms are not about the bugs, but what they do to body systems, and how those systems get stuck in their negative respone.

CD 57 is not "all", but is good to do.

Some thoughts/questions:

Tested c3a and c4a?

Thyroid t3/t4 and tsh?

Adrenal saliva test?

Brain / motor skills- did you read decartes 4 page post on this and choline.?

Any food digestive issues.?
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again and with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / fine tuning / fixing muscles since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

magoo2
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Date Joined Mar 2015
Total Posts : 1302
   Posted 3/2/2018 6:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Did the do a full immune system panel or just a white count?

Hoagie
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Date Joined Jul 2017
Total Posts : 799
   Posted 3/2/2018 10:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Hoagie - What markers are they using to asses your immune system?

I have always wondered about the fact that we (lymies) have a lowered immune system. I never get sick..no flus and maybe one cold since I've been sick (over 4 years)

You'd think with a lower immune function we'd get sick often...


I'm not up to par on all the markers. All I know is that I have had over 40 vials of blood drawn so far.

As far as not getting sick, the way I figured, if the immune system is compromised enough, you will not get the regular 'cold' as we know it. If my understanding is correct, the runny nose, fever, etc... is all because of the immune system mounting an attack. So, in an immunocompromised individual, I'm not sure what happens to a 'regular' cold virus.

Hoagie
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2017
Total Posts : 799
   Posted 3/2/2018 10:13 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Symptoms are not about the bugs, but what they do to body systems, and how those systems get stuck in their negative respone.

CD 57 is not "all", but is good to do.

Some thoughts/questions:

Tested c3a and c4a?

Thyroid t3/t4 and tsh?

Adrenal saliva test?

Brain / motor skills- did you read decartes 4 page post on this and choline.?

Any food digestive issues.?


C4a level was high. 4876

According to my patient portal, the C3a Desarg Fragment was drawn, but I am not seeing any results.

TSH is within range at .91

T3 is in range, 111

T4 Thyroxine is at 10.9... in range

T4 Free is at 1.2, in range.

I have had GI issues for quite a while until I added S Boullardi

Can you send me a link to descartes post if you don't mind?

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5085
   Posted 3/2/2018 10:35 PM (GMT -6)   
"C4a level was high. 4876"

Thats not real high, but you still have inflammation of some type, lyme mold or candida are the popular ones for this. I was 55,000 one time.

Where are the free t3 and free t4 in their ranges. Top, middle or bottom? Some Drs forget that Thyroid issues are not like an on/off switch, they are more like a variable dimmer.

"suffer fatigue, motor issues, brain fog" - why i asked about thyroid.

And those three can also be part of a malfunctioning Krebs Cycle - mostly enzymes and acids which effect mental / nuero, and motor/muscle skills. Cant find Decartes post, but I will mention the content and add to it:

Its about Acetylcholine, which comes from choline and Acetyl CoA.

These are found to be low in Alzheimer's patients whose symptoms share similar Krebs cycle defects as some lymies. The sleep agent Benadryl also has the same effect, as it lowers Choline until it wears off. Its been known that the hangover cure for Benadryl is to take choline the next morning.

Choline boost mental ability, awakeness, sharpness, and motor control.
Consider Benadryl lowers choline, thus creates opposite effects, and you sleep.

Choline itself is cheap and not very strong. There are other supplements that enhance it greatly if taken together. But this is not the best step unless you know that you are for sure low in choline or Acetylcholine.

Issue in not knowing is:
Too High Acetylcholine = low serotonin (depression), anxiety, edgy;
Too Low Acetylcholine = high serotonin (happy, but too much leads to depression days or weeks later).
Finding middle ground is the key, and that is done with safer, lower doses that you can add to every day.

**Online, some will say Lymies are low in this too with Alzheimers like symptoms.. BUT, thats not always the case with every lymie. Some lymies are opposite, and have to much choline.**

And, magnesium is needed to ensure the Krebs Citric Acid cycle works properly (it connects all the acids). Supplemental magnesium glycinate, malate or citrate will work for that purpose.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/3/2018 12:48:21 AM (GMT-7)

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