Emperical studies supporting hypothesis that Flagyl causes Herx?

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
31 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

Nigel
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 3
   Posted 3/2/2018 10:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Do you know of any empirical studies that support the hypothesis that Flagyl (metronidazole) may cause Jarish-Herxheimer reactions in persons with tickborne illnesses? If so, I would appreciate pointers to these studies.

Joseph J. Burrascano claims, "VERY severe Herxheimer-like reactions [from Flagyl] are seen in the more ill patient during the first week of therapy, and again four weeks later," but he provides no evidence (1). A PubMed search for "Burrascano J[Author]" yields 17 results, none pertaining to Flagyl induced Herxing.

PubMed searches for "Flagyl Jarish-Herxheimer," and "metronidazole Jarish-Herxheimer" yield no results.

(1) Burrascano, J. (Nov. 2002). Diagnostic hints and treatment guidelines for Lyme and other tick borne illnesses [Web page]. Retrieved from http://www.chroniclymedisease.com/burrascano_lyme_treatment_guidelines

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32685
   Posted 3/3/2018 12:35 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Nigel, welcome to our community.


I can't help you re: Empirical studies on herxing with flagyl.


Do you have Lyme disease and are wondering whether or not to take Flagyl?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Hoagie
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2017
Total Posts : 619
   Posted 3/3/2018 12:45 PM (GMT -6)   
I can't point you to any emperical evidence. But the last dose of Flagyl I had 2 weeks ago knocked my progress back to the dark ages. I'm still jacked up and haven't touched any abx since. The plan is to start back up in a week. That stuff is fierce. A lot of these bugs must be going into cyst form during the use of all the other abx. And when I hit em with Flagyl at the end of the cycle, it's bug Armageddon. Too many toxins for me to handle. This last one was the worst yet. Kinda scary.

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4880
   Posted 3/3/2018 12:53 PM (GMT -6)   
Hoagie said...
I can't point you to any emperical evidence. But the last dose of Flagyl I had 2 weeks ago knocked my progress back to the dark ages. I'm still jacked up and haven't touched any abx since. The plan is to start back up in a week. That stuff is fierce. A lot of these bugs must be going into cyst form during the use of all the other abx. And when I hit em with Flagyl at the end of the cycle, it's bug Armageddon. Too many toxins for me to handle. This last one was the worst yet. Kinda scary.


Most of the detoxers here didnt do much for me. D-limonine was the exception.

hammer8
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2017
Total Posts : 61
   Posted 3/3/2018 1:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Astroman - what dosage of d-limonene do you take and can it be taken with other meds?

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4880
   Posted 3/3/2018 1:39 PM (GMT -6)   
Most I took was 1000mg gel x 2 a day, Jarrow brand i$ best. $10/60 gels.

Now 1 every other night for maintenance as it says in your body up to 48 hours.

You can go up to 10,000mg a day- you would burp orange all day though LOL.

It speeds up the liver. "Fatty" livers are slow. There are "slow" liver genes as well, I have some of these. LLMDs should know this but dont. Killing the bugs are hard on our livers. If you liver is slow from genes..good luck detoxing with popular methods.

Certain RX health drugs are dosed per liver speed so to speak - blood thinners ect.....not abx though.

I always go to drugs dot com to read interactions.

Citrus pectig, in powder and capsules is also similar, bit I have not used it.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/3/2018 12:42:10 PM (GMT-7)


WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1682
   Posted 3/3/2018 7:54 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Most I took was 1000mg gel x 2 a day, Jarrow brand i$ best. $10/60 gels.

Now 1 every other night for maintenance as it says in your body up to 48 hours.

You can go up to 10,000mg a day- you would burp orange all day though LOL.

It speeds up the liver. "Fatty" livers are slow. There are "slow" liver genes as well, I have some of these. LLMDs should know this but dont. Killing the bugs are hard on our livers. If you liver is slow from genes..good luck detoxing with popular methods.

Certain RX health drugs are dosed per liver speed so to speak - blood thinners ect.....not abx though.

I always go to drugs dot com to read interactions.

Citrus pectig, in powder and capsules is also similar, bit I have not used it.


astroman,
Thank you for sharing this. I have a hard time detoxing and have to go very low and slow with herbal treatment. I have family members with what appears to be hereditary fatty liver disease. Two died and one had a liver transplant. My PCP knows about my family, but my labs have always been normal except once in November and in December they were normal again.

How do you know if you have fatty liver? What genes are connected with this?

What can you do about it? I do take milk thistle and dandelion root.

Nigel
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 3
   Posted 3/3/2018 8:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Girlie,

I'm taking Flagyl for Blastocystis, a protozoal infection, but it is causing a moderately intense flare up of mild joint pain that I had before I started the Flagyl. As Blastocytes inhabit the intestines, not joints, I suspect this may be a Herxheimer reaction to a recurrence of one or more of my tickborne illnesses, and that the symptoms that led me to take Flagyl (mostly gastrointestinal) might not be caused by Blastocytes, but by tickborne infections. Or, the joint pain could simply be an adverse effect of Flagyl, albeit an unusual one. In any case, I'm going back to my LL clinician to get IGeneX tests.

Psilociraptor
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1228
   Posted 3/3/2018 9:32 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm not aware of any such publication, nor do I see a reason for Burrascano to publish that. Herxheimers are caused by the death of spirochetes, not the antibiotic. So in theory any antibiotic that spirochetes are susceptible to should elicit a herxheimer. Spirochetes are somewhat susceptible to flagyl and so there's no reason to really doubt this could be the case if you have a history of tickborne illness. For me, herxheimers, if moderate, subside after a few days of maintaining the same dose. So that could be a good way to rule out side effects.

Also I wouldn't waste any money on more testing if you already have a past diagnosis. Not the antibody tests at least since they don't discriminate between past infection and current. FISH/PCR etc could still be useful

Hoagie
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2017
Total Posts : 619
   Posted 3/3/2018 11:38 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Hoagie said...
I can't point you to any emperical evidence. But the last dose of Flagyl I had 2 weeks ago knocked my progress back to the dark ages. I'm still jacked up and haven't touched any abx since. The plan is to start back up in a week. That stuff is fierce. A lot of these bugs must be going into cyst form during the use of all the other abx. And when I hit em with Flagyl at the end of the cycle, it's bug Armageddon. Too many toxins for me to handle. This last one was the worst yet. Kinda scary.


Most of the detoxers here didnt do much for me. D-limonine was the exception.


Thanks astroman. I will be trying this.

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4880
   Posted 3/4/2018 1:36 AM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
astroman said...
Most I took was 1000mg gel x 2 a day, Jarrow brand i$ best. $10/60 gels.

Now 1 every other night for maintenance as it says in your body up to 48 hours.

You can go up to 10,000mg a day- you would burp orange all day though LOL.

It speeds up the liver. "Fatty" livers are slow. There are "slow" liver genes as well, I have some of these. LLMDs should know this but dont. Killing the bugs are hard on our livers. If you liver is slow from genes..good luck detoxing with popular methods.

Certain RX health drugs are dosed per liver speed so to speak - blood thinners ect.....not abx though.

I always go to drugs dot com to read interactions.

Citrus pectig, in powder and capsules is also similar, bit I have not used it.


astroman,
Thank you for sharing this. I have a hard time detoxing and have to go very low and slow with herbal treatment. I have family members with what appears to be hereditary fatty liver disease. Two died and one had a liver transplant. My PCP knows about my family, but my labs have always been normal except once in November and in December they were normal again.

How do you know if you have fatty liver? What genes are connected with this?

What can you do about it? I do take milk thistle and dandelion root.


"Fatty livers " are acquired and can have genes influencing them.

Gene based "inefficient" livers are not necessarily "Fatty", they just dont detox correctly and your born with this possibility.

The MTHFR Support 23/me data report has about 26-30 liver genes broken down to roughly 250 liver gene "variations" for phase I and phase II liver detox pathways - a lot of info.

I cant really list them all, but its variations of mostly these genes: cyp ugt adh1b cat fut gad ggh gss mthfd1 nat2 nqo1 slc sult

There is no cure, other than taking care of it.

Best detox for phase II liver issues is d-limonene, and does not mess with other body systems, rather it does them some "good". Anti- candida, anti-cancer, cures gerd, helps sleep.

Sam-e works to but it changes brain chemistry amino acids which is why its used for depression. I had more anxiety, sam-e made it worse.

These genes are the difference between alcoholics who live and die. Lucky for me, drinking was never and will never be a hobby.

I've had Jaundice in the past and now know it was gene related.

That whole report lists about 1000-1100 genes for the whole body, besides the common ones for $50. It was info overload at first. I find the immune genes most interesting and they should be more well noted. T cell genes expressed "off".....welcome chronic lyme then, and LLMDs dont know this? The world leading cancer Drs recognize it and developed a brew/med to turn T cells back "on", then the body has a chance to win, and does sometimes.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32685
   Posted 3/4/2018 1:51 AM (GMT -6)   
Nigel said...
Hi Girlie,

I'm taking Flagyl for Blastocystis, a protozoal infection, but it is causing a moderately intense flare up of mild joint pain that I had before I started the Flagyl. As Blastocytes inhabit the intestines, not joints, I suspect this may be a Herxheimer reaction to a recurrence of one or more of my tickborne illnesses, and that the symptoms that led me to take Flagyl (mostly gastrointestinal) might not be caused by Blastocytes, but by tickborne infections. Or, the joint pain could simply be an adverse effect of Flagyl, albeit an unusual one. In any case, I'm going back to my LL clinician to get IGeneX tests.


I agree with Psilo about the antibody testing. Is that what you're having done via Igenx? Lyme WB IgM and IgG? I don't see how that will help you.
You can get antibodies show up, even if you're in remission...and conversely you can get a negative response (no lyme specific antibodies) even if you have active infection..

You might want to consider their newer tests: the IGXSpot and Immunoblot.
The reason I suggest this is they appear to be similar to what Armin Labs offers. (German lab).
I know some LL Dr.'s do follow up tests with Armin Labs to gauge progress. I don't know enough about those tests to comment on whether that is valid or not.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 2116
   Posted 3/4/2018 1:55 AM (GMT -6)   
Ya'll remember when I got roasted on here for saying we were getting or had fatty livers? It's still true.

Psilo, a herx doesn't have to come from spirochetes. For Flagyl, it can come from protozoans. And it's not the cellular debris the always causes the herx, it's the metals that were attached to the pathogen. IMO, this happens with candida and protozoans more than with spirochetes.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32685
   Posted 3/4/2018 2:33 AM (GMT -6)   
Georgia Hunter said...
Ya'll remember when I got roasted on here for saying we were getting or had fatty livers? It's still true.

Psilo, a herx doesn't have to come from spirochetes. For Flagyl, it can come from protozoans. And it's not the cellular debris the always causes the herx, it's the metals that were attached to the pathogen. IMO, this happens with candida and protozoans more than with spirochetes.


Georgia - Are you saying we are at higher risk of getting fatty liver? - or you're saying we all have it/had it?

I'm pretty sure I don't have one - well not yet anyway.....I don't have high liver enzymes, and have had an ultrasound which showed nothing, and recently had a Practioner check for inflammation - by palpating my abdomen on that side - to check for swelling.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

The Dude Abides
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 1135
   Posted 3/4/2018 3:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Does my liver make me look fat?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32685
   Posted 3/4/2018 3:41 AM (GMT -6)   
The Dude Abides said...
Does my liver make me look fat?


No, dear tongue
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

The Dude Abides
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 1135
   Posted 3/4/2018 3:42 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
The Dude Abides said...
Does my liver make me look fat?


No, dear tongue


That's the correct answer. I can tell you're married. smile

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32685
   Posted 3/4/2018 3:49 AM (GMT -6)   
The Dude Abides said...
Girlie said...
The Dude Abides said...
Does my liver make me look fat?


No, dear tongue


That's the correct answer. I can tell you're married. smile


And 26 years of practice....I’ve got it down
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Charlie55
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2017
Total Posts : 68
   Posted 3/4/2018 4:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Nigel said...
Hi Girlie,

I'm taking Flagyl for Blastocystis, a protozoal infection, but it is causing a moderately intense flare up of mild joint pain that I had before I started the Flagyl. As Blastocytes inhabit the intestines, not joints, I suspect this may be a Herxheimer reaction to a recurrence of one or more of my tickborne illnesses, and that the symptoms that led me to take Flagyl (mostly gastrointestinal) might not be caused by Blastocytes, but by tickborne infections.


Nigel, most antibiotics will cause severe Herxheimer reactions if you're in the "early" treatment of a tickborne "bacteria" illness, whether it's bartonella, borrelia, or even mycoplasma. Ticborne infections are very serious and cause more severe symptoms than normal bacteria because you're dealing with a much more resilient bacteria than traditional bacteria, borrelia is a spirochetal infection than can form biofilms, persister cell dormant bacteria, as well as round body forms. Bartonella has known to be persister cell as well, as shown through Dr. Horrowitz's work.

I hate to break it to you, but If you've been bitten by a tick in modern day, you're dealing with more than just Blastocystis. Highly unlikely you've been just infected with just one tickborne pathogen. This might be the only infection that shows up in your bloodwork, but that doesn't mean it's the only infection in your body right now. 7 years ago when I was infected with borrelia, only thing I tested for was Parvo virus. Does that mean that's the only thing I had? 7 years later, I'm still treating this resilient disease.

ELISA and Western Blot will all test false negative, just as my ELISA test did, because your body won't start making antibodies after a few months of treatment. Not to mention the ELISA tests for "one strain" of borrelia bacteria, trying to pick up that one strain of "antibody," guess what there are over 100 strains in the US, so you might not ever test positive. Igenex is the most accurate, but it's still not 100%.

It be 2018 now, ticks carry a lot more pathogens than they did back in the 80s, 90s, and 2000. You get bit by a tick in todays modern world, you're being infected with more than one pathogen.

A big tip is, if you just have Blastocystis and you're getting sever flare ups and herxheimer reactions from Flagyl, most likely you're killing off spirochetes, not parasites.

Nigel said...
I suspect this may be a Herxheimer reaction to a recurrence of one or more of my tickborne illnesses.

In any case, I'm going back to my LL clinician to get IGeneX tests.


I hate to break it to you yet again, if you're coming to this conclusively by yourself and not by your supposed "lyme literate physician," both about the herx reaction from flagyl and getting bloodwork done by Igenex, guess what, your physician isn't lyme literate. Fact of the matter he or she shouldn't be basing your treatment solely on a bloodwork test, but rather your symptoms instead. And yes you are right, get the Igenex done, but remember it isn't bullet proof.

Just the fact that your Doctor is relying on your bloodwork to do treatment should be throwing up warning signs for you. I would be running the other way and getting a more reputable lyme literate doctor, read the forums, and read the reviews on healthgrades.com and ratemds.com. Hopefully you'll find a more qualified lyme literate physician with a long record of treating patients near you.

Not all lyme literate physicians are created the same and a lot of them aren't educated with the latest antibiotic protocols and recent breakthroughs in Lyme Disease. There has been some recent breakthroughs made, as I will talk about this down below.

Nigel said...
Do you know of any empirical studies that support the hypothesis that Flagyl (metronidazole) may cause Jarish-Herxheimer reactions in persons with tickborne illnesses? If so, I would appreciate pointers to these studies.

Joseph J. Burrascano claims, "VERY severe Herxheimer-like reactions [from Flagyl] are seen in the more ill patient during the first week of therapy, and again four weeks later," but he provides no evidence (1). A PubMed search for "Burrascano J[Author]" yields 17 results, none pertaining to Flagyl induced Herxing.

PubMed searches for "Flagyl Jarish-Herxheimer," and "metronidazole Jarish-Herxheimer" yield no results.


And to get a direct answer, "if there are any empirical studies that support the hypothesis that flagyl causes Jarish-Herxheimer reaction." Closest thing you'll find is the work done by Dr. Sapi, where her work has shown the percentage affects on numerous forms of spirochetes by the antiprotozoal drugs: live spirochetes, biofilm colonies, and round body forms. This includes the antiprotozoal drugs Flagyl, Tindamax, Alinia. They are all very similar and work great!
/www.mdjunction.com/forums/lyme-disease-support-forums/studies-research/2710311-eva-sapi-article-biofilms-antbiotics-may-program

Personally, if you're in the early stage of treatment, I'd be going with the strongest one out of the bunch which is Tindamax, Dr. Sapi said it was the most effective drug that worked against biofilm colonies. Biofilms are most likely the main reason why Lyme Disease is staying a chronic disease, as well as the persister cells.

If you've caught the infection in time, you might get away with just using 1 or 2 antibiotics, like flagyl and doxy or flagyl and tindamax. But if you've gone chronic, most likely you'll need lyme literate doctor that is using 2-3 antibiotic protocol to get you on the right track and treat multiple forms of borrelia and maybe some of the coinfections.

I highly recommend researching work done by John Hopkins, Dr. Zhang, Dr. Horrowitz, Dr. Jemsek on Disulfiram, Dapsone, Disulfiram. The latest breakthrough research on biofilms and persister cells.

I would definitely be using biofilm busting agents with your antibiotics, like liquid form of stevia, xylitol, maybe even Solaray Nattokinase and Serrapeptase combo supplement. But personally I think stevia works the best.

Just so you know, persister cells and biofilms why Lyme Disease is staying chronic, regardless of what other people are saying on the forums, about mold, genetics, parasites, radio waves, candida, and the other crap. Many new studies like the John Hopkins, UConn, Embers back this up now, it took mitomycin c(chemotherapy) to full eradicate the multiple forms of borrelia in vitro at the lab.

/www.scientificamerican.com/article/lyme-disease-may-linger-for-1-in-5-because-of-persisters/
/today.uconn.edu/2018/02/makes-bacteria-behind-lyme-disease-tick/
/www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lyme-bug-beats-antibiotics-in-animals-and-test-tubes_us_59fa4fdbe4b09afdf01c4023

Small write up on biofilms.
www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4694752/Stevia-CURE-Lyme-disease-better-antibiotics.html

There's not many antibiotics on the market that can fully eradicate biofilms and persister cells at the same time.

Disulfiram might be a new breakthrough drug... Dr. Horrowtiz is having success with Dapsone and Pyrazinamide with patients when all other antibiotics are failing.

I would try Disulfiram and Doxycyline with stevia tincture like the one by Sweet Leaf. Just be careful, because some tinctures use alcohol to extract their supplements from plants.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 3/4/2018 4:27:01 AM (GMT-7)


Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 2116
   Posted 3/4/2018 7:59 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...

Georgia - Are you saying we are at higher risk of getting fatty liver? - or you're saying we all have it/had it?


Yes, we are at higher risk and many of us have or are getting a fatty liver. The reason I say this is because our biological pathways are all interrelated. When our oxidative stress increases, our body starts doing what is necessary to reduce oxidative stress. Eventually, lipid peroxidation is altered (probably used to reduce free radicals.) The good thing is that there are varying degrees of fatty livers and ours don't look anything like an alcoholics. The better our overall health, the lesser of a degree of dysfunction. I see this as way down the list of things to be concerned about. Our body does too.

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4880
   Posted 3/4/2018 10:17 AM (GMT -6)   
The Dude Abides said...
Does my liver make me look fat?


Well, now that you ask, yes.

So have another beer, you'll feel better...oh wait...

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4880
   Posted 3/4/2018 11:17 AM (GMT -6)   
Charlie55 said...

...Just so you know, persister cells and biofilms why Lyme Disease is staying chronic, regardless of what other people are saying on the forums, about mold, genetics, parasites, radio waves, candida, and the other crap. Many new studies like the John Hopkins, UConn, Embers back this up now, it took mitomycin c(chemotherapy) to full eradicate the multiple forms of borrelia in vitro at the lab..


Hmmm..

All of the "other crap" together certainly makes a difference, in addition to the infections, and they have their own symptoms as well.

ABX use can create candida overgrowth, fact, and this has its own symptoms which can easily be confused with lyme. This other "crap" listed is not lyme disease, but other issues which came to the surface making the body more ill.

Also, genetics does not lie, it has a DIRECT effect on our health, some people more than others, its what makes us who we are.

We cant forget that there are individuals with positive lyme (BB) tests who have not developed symptoms. Certain outdoor occupational testing has shown this. Apparently their immune systems are still working...we should ask, why is that?

Great that John Hopkins has proven longer duration lyme infection can exist.

Some of what people call chronic lyme is also in fact, damage. As much as I dislike the CDC's lyme view, they are not entirely wrong here.

I never liked the term "chonic lyme"- it means different things to different people.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/4/2018 12:22:06 PM (GMT-7)


LymeSick 🌟
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 3/4/2018 11:39 AM (GMT -6)   

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4880
   Posted 3/4/2018 11:39 AM (GMT -6)   
Georgia Hunter said...
Girlie said...

Georgia - Are you saying we are at higher risk of getting fatty liver? - or you're saying we all have it/had it?


Yes, we are at higher risk and many of us have or are getting a fatty liver. The reason I say this is because our biological pathways are all interrelated. When our oxidative stress increases, our body starts doing what is necessary to reduce oxidative stress. Eventually, lipid peroxidation is altered (probably used to reduce free radicals.) The good thing is that there are varying degrees of fatty livers and ours don't look anything like an alcoholics. The better our overall health, the lesser of a degree of dysfunction. I see this as way down the list of things to be concerned about. Our body does too.


Girlie- even with some red flags on my liver genes, I dont believe I have developed a fatty liver. My liver enzymes did elevate on ABX every-time but did settle back down every time. Detox methods others suggest on forums had minimal impact. Dr suggested D-limonene for liver pathway detox which I already used for gerd.

For me, I know abusing my liver can have a greater negative effect in my overall health vs if I didnt have these genes. Dr suggested to not drink at all. That said, I cheated and had less than twelve beers last year and but no hard alcohol.

If people DONT have elevated liver enzymes during ABX, sounds like they have great livers and liver pathway genes.

Nigel
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 3
   Posted 3/4/2018 1:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Charlie55 said...
I hate to break it to you, but If you've been bitten by a tick in modern day, you're dealing with more than just Blastocystis. Highly unlikely you've been just infected with just one tickborne pathogen. This might be the only infection that shows up in your bloodwork, but that doesn't mean it's the only infection in your body right now.


Blastocyst protozoa are transmitted by fecal-oral contact, not ticks. (For instance, by eating restaurant food contaminated by a cook who did not wash their hands after using the bathroom.) Blastocysts inhabit the intestines and are excreted in feces; they do not inhabit blood, so they are detected by microscopic or DNA analysis of stool samples, not blood samples. I am aware that multiple tickborne infections exist and are likely, having had Ehrlichiosis, Babesiosis, Bartonellosis, and Lyme.

Charlie55 said...
I hate to break it to you yet again, if you're coming to this conclusively by yourself and not by your supposed "lyme literate physician," both about the herx reaction from flagyl and getting bloodwork done by Igenex, guess what, your physician isn't lyme literate. Fact of the matter he or she shouldn't be basing your treatment solely on a bloodwork test, but rather your symptoms instead. And yes you are right, get the Igenex done, but remember it isn't bullet proof. Just the fact that your Doctor is relying on your bloodwork to do treatment should be throwing up warning signs for you. I would be running the other way and getting a more reputable lyme literate doctor.


Nowhere did I say that my clinician or I base treatment solely on test results. She and I are aware of the limitations of testing. We base treatment on a combination of symptoms, test results, and responses to treatment. My current array of symptoms are known, my history of tickborne diseases is known, so IMO testing is indicated as a next step.
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
31 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, June 25, 2018 6:27 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 2,974,926 posts in 326,228 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 161317 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, chris fletcher.
379 Guest(s), 12 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
older guy, Noluck, Blake Letras, suppwife, torontolyme, Bull101, johncl, Pratoman, dbwilco, Ticsic, shanna j, OriolCarol