Ed and bartonella

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OriolCarol
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 723
   Posted 3/5/2018 7:01 AM (GMT -6)   
I wrote an email to Ed because i was worried about bartonella and if it could survive in cloth, and outside the host. He's brilliant! I sent it and in two hours he wrote me. It's what he said.

Hello Oriole,

Currently, research indicates that transmission occurs only if your cat has fleas. Cat Scratch Disease is caused by inoculation of Barotnella organisms from the flea feces into a scratch or bite wound. There is no evidence that the cat can contaminate your household environment resulting in infection. Critical to keep fleas off of your cat.

Kind regards,

ed b.

acarined
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 230
   Posted 3/5/2018 12:16 PM (GMT -6)   
Bartonella DNA in Dog Saliva

These data, in conjunction with previous case reports (3–5), suggest that potentially viable Bartonella organisms may be transmitted to humans after a dog bite. The detection of DNA by PCR does not necessarily indicate the viability of Bartonella organisms. However, due to the extremely slow growth characteristics of Bartonella spp., isolation from the oral cavity does not seem feasible, because of competition with numerous other rapidly growing oral bacterial species. Recently, Bartonella DNA has been amplified from peripheral lymph nodes of healthy dogs (14). B. henselae was also amplified from salivary gland tissues from a dog with saladenitis (15). There are several plausible routes by which a Bartonella sp. could gain entry to the oral cavity. Future studies should determine if the tonsilar lymphoid tissues, salivary glands, or periodontal, gingival, or other oral tissues can serve as sources of Bartonella spp. contamination of canine saliva. As Bartonella infection may represent an occupational risk for veterinary professionals and others with extensive animal contact (6), additional studies should address the risk of transmission from dogs to humans following bite wounds.

Oral shedding of Bartonella in cats: correlation with bacteremia and seropositivity

Cats are the main reservoirs of zoonotic Bartonella henselae, B. clarridgeiae and B. koehlerae, transmitted among cats by cat fleas. No study has investigated the presence of Bartonella in the saliva of bacteremic and non-bacteremic cats to correlate it to the level of bacteremia and the presence or absence of oral lesions. Shelter cats from northern California (n=130) and Michigan (n=50) were tested for Bartonella bacteremia by blood culture, presence of Bartonella antibodies and Bartonella DNA in oral swabs. Bacteremia was detected in 45 (25%) cats, mainly from northern California (n=40), which were highly flea infested and were 4 times more likely to be bacteremic than the non-flea-infested cats from Michigan. Overall, 69 (38.3%) cats had Bartonella PCR positive oral swabs. Bacteremic cats were almost 3 times (P=0.003) more likely to have PCR positive oral swabs (59%, 26/44) than non-bacteremic cats (32.5%, 44/135). However, there was no correlation between cats being bacteremic and having oral lesions. Antibody prevalences for B. henselae and B. clarridgeiae were 30% and 42.8%. B. henselae and B. clarridgeiae seropositive cats were almost 4 times (P=0.0001) and 3 times (P=0.003) more likely to have oral lesions than seronegative cats. Despite a higher prevalence (odds ratio=1.73; 95% confidence interval=0.88-3.38) of oral lesions in cats with oral swabs testing PCR positive, no statistical association could be demonstrated in this cat population.

OriolCarol
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 723
   Posted 3/5/2018 1:20 PM (GMT -6)   
Good contribution, but that does not indicate that the bacteria can survive outside the host as Ed says by mail

I'm lost, some say yes others say no... it seems imposible to show how this bacteria can survive

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33798
   Posted 3/5/2018 1:41 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
Good contribution, but that does not indicate that the bacteria can survive outside the host as Ed says by mail

I'm lost, some say yes others say no... it seems imposible to show how this bacteria can survive


I don't believe it's on the furniture...or their hairs - on the floor...etc.


If it is...then we're all doomed...I'm just using common sense.
We can't live in a bubble.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

NicHostetler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 647
   Posted 3/5/2018 1:56 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
OriolCarol said...
Good contribution, but that does not indicate that the bacteria can survive outside the host as Ed says by mail

I'm lost, some say yes others say no... it seems imposible to show how this bacteria can survive


I don't believe it's on the furniture...or their hairs - on the floor...etc.


If it is...then we're all doomed...I'm just using common sense.
We can't live in a bubble.


Exactly!! Are we going to start wearing hazmat suits to protect us from getting the flu? NO! And that KILLS people.

To worry about getting bartonella from a cat via hair or furniture just seems a little crazy to me..

acarined
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 230
   Posted 3/5/2018 1:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Bartonella can survive in the feces of fleas and lice, supposedly they can be viable up to a year. Rickettsia has been proven to spread by inhalation of dried fecal dust.

TOOTY
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 269
   Posted 3/5/2018 11:07 PM (GMT -6)   
acarined said...
Bartonella DNA in Dog Saliva

These data, in conjunction with previous case reports (3–5), suggest that potentially viable Bartonella organisms may be transmitted to humans after a dog bite. The detection of DNA by PCR does not necessarily indicate the viability of Bartonella organisms. However, due to the extremely slow growth characteristics of Bartonella spp., isolation from the oral cavity does not seem feasible, because of competition with numerous other rapidly growing oral bacterial species. Recently, Bartonella DNA has been amplified from peripheral lymph nodes of healthy dogs (14). B. henselae was also amplified from salivary gland tissues from a dog with saladenitis (15). There are several plausible routes by which a Bartonella sp. could gain entry to the oral cavity. Future studies should determine if the tonsilar lymphoid tissues, salivary glands, or periodontal, gingival, or other oral tissues can serve as sources of Bartonella spp. contamination of canine saliva. As Bartonella infection may represent an occupational risk for veterinary professionals and others with extensive animal contact (6), additional studies should address the risk of transmission from dogs to humans following bite wounds.

Oral shedding of Bartonella in cats: correlation with bacteremia and seropositivity

Cats are the main reservoirs of zoonotic Bartonella henselae, B. clarridgeiae and B. koehlerae, transmitted among cats by cat fleas. No study has investigated the presence of Bartonella in the saliva of bacteremic and non-bacteremic cats to correlate it to the level of bacteremia and the presence or absence of oral lesions. Shelter cats from northern California (n=130) and Michigan (n=50) were tested for Bartonella bacteremia by blood culture, presence of Bartonella antibodies and Bartonella DNA in oral swabs. Bacteremia was detected in 45 (25%) cats, mainly from northern California (n=40), which were highly flea infested and were 4 times more likely to be bacteremic than the non-flea-infested cats from Michigan. Overall, 69 (38.3%) cats had Bartonella PCR positive oral swabs. Bacteremic cats were almost 3 times (P=0.003) more likely to have PCR positive oral swabs (59%, 26/44) than non-bacteremic cats (32.5%, 44/135). However, there was no correlation between cats being bacteremic and having oral lesions. Antibody prevalences for B. henselae and B. clarridgeiae were 30% and 42.8%. B. henselae and B. clarridgeiae seropositive cats were almost 4 times (P=0.0001) and 3 times (P=0.003) more likely to have oral lesions than seronegative cats. Despite a higher prevalence (odds ratio=1.73; 95% confidence interval=0.88-3.38) of oral lesions in cats with oral swabs testing PCR positive, no statistical association could be demonstrated in this cat population.


acarined said...
Bartonella can survive in the feces of fleas and lice, supposedly they can be viable up to a year. Rickettsia has been proven to spread by inhalation of dried fecal dust.


Right on, acarined! Exactly.

You all might want to consider how transmissible and viable Brucella is and how closely Bartonella is related to it. Consider also they both are aerobic and need oxygen, so just because they are exposed to oxygen or are outside a living animal, this will not necessarily kill them. UV light from the sun may, but they are very hardy, and yes, they are known to survive for months outside a host. Brucella is infective through the air and has been used in biowarfare attacks, particularly in WWII.

As long as you have flea feces in the dust in your home, potentially any scratch could cause infection with Bartonella. I don't know how many Bartonella organisms it typically takes to cause infection, but minimum infectious exposure is 10-100 organisms for Brucella.

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 723
   Posted 3/6/2018 3:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Exactly because of this I am so worried.

I am sick My mother has now started with fasciculations and pain in the shins, joints ... My girlfriend with a tinnitus and fasciculations and my father with pain in the shins and tinnitus ....

It's all very strange ... Maybe it's a coincidence but...

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2537
   Posted 3/6/2018 7:54 AM (GMT -6)   
I would wonder about something environmental (mold, etc). Sorry, I don’t believe the bartonella transmission above. My kitten tests highly positive and nobody is sick. My daughter was scratched and I worried - yet she is ok. I even had her tested. Most people don’t get cat scratch disease and close to half of cats have it.. These diseases are not new. The junk in our environment is. Mold is now more of an issue due to air tight construction. Also, our immune systems are weak with our SAD (standard american diet).

If your cat does not have fleas, you haven’t been scratched or bitten, I would not worry.

Post Edited (k07) : 3/6/2018 6:41:48 AM (GMT-7)


Lapis_29
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 882
   Posted 3/6/2018 9:46 AM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
I would wonder about something environmental (mold, etc).


agreed
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