Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

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acarined
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   Posted 3/9/2018 4:56 PM (GMT -6)   
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180308143102.htm

Bacteria found in the small intestines of mice and humans can travel to other organs and trigger an autoimmune response, according to a new Yale study. The researchers also found that the autoimmune reaction can be suppressed with an antibiotic or vaccine designed to target the bacteria, they said.

The findings, published in Science, suggest promising new approaches for treating chronic autoimmune conditions, including systemic lupus and autoimmune liver disease, the researchers said.

Gut bacteria have been linked to a range of diseases, including autoimmune conditions characterized by immune system attack of healthy tissue. To shed light on this link, a Yale research team focused on Enterococcus gallinarum, a bacterium they discovered is able to spontaneously "translocate" outside of the gut to lymph nodes, the liver, and spleen.

In models of genetically susceptible mice, the researchers observed that in tissues outside the gut, E. gallinarum initiated the production of auto-antibodies and inflammation -- hallmarks of the autoimmune response. They confirmed the same mechanism of inflammation in cultured liver cells of healthy people, and the presence of this bacterium in livers of patients with autoimmune disease.

Through further experiments, the research team found that they could suppress autoimmunity in mice with an antibiotic or a vaccine aimed at E. gallinarum. With either approach, the researchers were able to suppress growth of the bacterium in the tissues and blunt its effects on the immune system.

"When we blocked the pathway leading to inflammation, we could reverse the effect of this bug on autoimmunity," said senior author Martin Kriegel, M.D.

"The vaccine against E. gallinarum was a specific approach, as vaccinations against other bacteria we investigated did not prevent mortality and autoimmunity," he noted. The vaccine was delivered through injection in muscle to avoid targeting other bacteria that reside in the gut.

While Kriegel and his colleagues plan further research on E. gallinarum and its mechanisms, the findings have relevance for systemic lupus and autoimmune liver disease, they said.

"Treatment with an antibiotic and other approaches such as vaccination are promising ways to improve the lives of patients with autoimmune disease," he said.

_____________

When I was prescribed minocycline for Lyme by a LLMD, my rheumatologist told me it was a DMARD and that improvement wouldn't necessarily prove I had Lyme. I did have an equivocal result on band 23, but now I wonder how many people with negative tests are having a reaction to another type of infection.

Post Edited (acarined) : 3/9/2018 3:00:07 PM (GMT-7)


WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 3/9/2018 5:08 PM (GMT -6)   
That sounds like SIBO combined with leaky gut. No surprise. I'm wary of any vaccines though.

astroman
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   Posted 3/9/2018 9:32 PM (GMT -6)   
Is this "finding" not the same as leaky gut?. Maybe the E. gallinarum finding is a little more specific, but we have many gut bacteria that cause harm outside of the gut lining. Cure is to stop the leaking (diet, supps ect), not just kill the bacteria.

With diet, I reversed an elevated inflammatory c4a and brought one autoimmune Hashimoto antibody very low, no drugs, just food. Its has a positive effect, but did not cure my need for thyroid meds.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/10/2018 8:23:42 AM (GMT-7)


WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 3/9/2018 9:54 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...

With diet, I reversed an elevated inflammatory c4a and brought one autoimmune Hashimoto antibody very low, no drugs, just food. Its has a positive effect, but did not cure my need for thyroid meds.


astroman,

What diet reversed your elevated c4a? I thought elevated c4a was due to mold exposure.

JustPiccd
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   Posted 3/9/2018 10:39 PM (GMT -6)   
I was really intrigued by this article too, but annoyed they didn't say *which* antibiotic (or combo) treats this, or what probiotics might specifically help. I read that E. gallinarum is resistant to vancomycin, so what would hit it? Does anyone know?

astroman
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   Posted 3/10/2018 12:53 AM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
astroman said...

With diet, I reversed an elevated inflammatory c4a and brought one autoimmune Hashimoto antibody very low, no drugs, just food. Its has a positive effect, but did not cure my need for thyroid meds.


astroman,

What diet reversed your elevated c4a? I thought elevated c4a was due to mold exposure.


Just 99% Paleo fixed the continuing elevated c4a (55,000) and remaining/noticeable gut issues in just 3 months. No eradication meds or herbs were involved in that, which ended 1.5 years prior to starting this natural diet "experiment".

This also fixed one thyroid antibody for a while, conventional medicine says this is impossible. After I ate a little less strict, the thyroid antibody went up a little, now it teeter-totters.

My physical strength has also doubled in the gym in 14 months, close to where I was 18 years ago. I have worked out with weights and cardio for 36 years, so this is very interesting. I suppose that is partially healing after lyme too, no way to really know.

I would guess I'm 90% paleo today. The "cheating" is still more closer too the natural side though, like: The only wheat in me is from real sour dough 95-99% GF bread, and even almond milk is technically cheating. I do eat non-GMO corn chips, which have only three ingredients. Bought one six pack of gluten removed beer last year. I used to have one sixer a week of real beer. I miss it and drink no other alcohol at all, that also means there are past "friends" I no longer see. Since I have a wonky liver (genes), I might as well take care of it.

People are led to assume high c4a is from mold.....if they read a lot from Shoemaker. He's obviously a smart guy, but his "preachings" are not very well rounded. Its an inflammatory marker common with mold, as well as other "issues"- lyme, autoimmune, candida, prob more too. I think his latest lyme interests are going to be great though.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/9/2018 11:09:58 PM (GMT-7)


Lymiemomster
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   Posted 3/10/2018 1:16 AM (GMT -6)   
If you have a microbiology stool test done, say by Doctors Data, they can give you a pretty good analysis. My son was really suffering from awful lower intestine/colon pain, worse in the am. The test came back for dysbiotic bacteria and surprisingly normalish candida. It specified exactly which bacteria ànd what abx or herbals they are resistant or susceptible to. So my son did ten days of bactrim. The LLND said wait 2-3 weeks after tx. And he is about right, my son said his pain is much better!

At least with the test you know exactly which bacteria you have! For example, it all flared up when I wanted to give my son something "natural" for constipation. I gave him inulin, or chicory root. Well, klebseilla THRIVES with, guess what? Inulin. It is a type of prebiotic. So some prebiotics feed bad bacteria.

There are certain probiotics which fight certain bad bacteria, so that is why it is good to know what bad bacteria you have.
15 yr old son sick no school Oct/15 Dx July/16
Migraines extreme brain fog anxiety/ocd insomnia extreme joint pain neuropathy stomach pain
Aug 3/16 Doxy Zithro BB Bab 2
Oct 5 Zithro and rifampin, Bab 2 anxiety/panic attacks -quit rif
Dec Zithro, Artesunate and finishing Bab 2 Mid Dec add japanese knotweed,gou teng
Feb 2017 80% normal back to school, added houttuynia

Post Edited (Lymiemomster) : 3/10/2018 12:01:53 AM (GMT-7)


astroman
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   Posted 3/10/2018 10:27 AM (GMT -6)   
Lymiemomster- Doctors Data, will they work with consumers directly when no blood samples are needed?

Used to here a lot about there hair sample testing for heavy metals I think.

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
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   Posted 3/10/2018 10:55 AM (GMT -6)   
astroman and Lymiemomster,

Thanks so much for the information. I'm interested in Doctors Data, too. I know I need to eat right, but I'm so tired of not knowing what I'm actually dealing with in my gut, and my gut just keeps getting worse. I have no income so I'm hesitant to spend money on expensive tests. My PCP did do what was supposed to be a comprehensive stool analysis with a lab called DRG Laboratory. It tested for 8 bacteria, H. Pylori, abx resistance by PCR, and the following GI health markers by ELISA:

Antigliadin IGA - result 36.1 (lab cutoff 100 = normal)
Calprotectin - <30 (lab cutoff 160 = normal)
Elastase - 646.8 (lab cutoff 200 = normal)
Fecal fat - normal
Fecal occult blood (FOBT) - not detected
H. Pylori stool antigen - negative
Lactoferrin - <6.25 (lab cutoff 7 = normal)

None of the bacteria tested were detected and all the results were determined normal by the lab. So, essentially it doesn't reveal anything. The lactoferrin was close to the cutoff. The lab report indicates many GI infections and colorectal cancer often result in elevated levels of lactoferrin in fecal samples.

Also even though the antigliadin antibodies are in normal range, I wouldn't expect a normal person to have any antibodies, so I really do need to take that seriously and stop eating gluten before something worse happens. For me, the diet changes seem overwhelming.

acarined
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 231
   Posted 3/10/2018 10:58 AM (GMT -6)   
JustPiccd said...
I was really intrigued by this article too, but annoyed they didn't say *which* antibiotic (or combo) treats this, or what probiotics might specifically help. I read that E. gallinarum is resistant to vancomycin, so what would hit it? Does anyone know?


Mortality, lupus-related autoantibodies, and autoimmune manifestations were relieved in (NZW × BXSB)F1 hybrid mice after oral administration of vancomycin or ampicillin, implicating involvement of Gram-positive pathobionts in disease. In addition to anti-dsDNA and anti-RNA autoantibodies, anti-b2GPI immunoglobulin G (IgG), hepatic and serum ERV gp70, and anti–ERV gp70 immune complexes (ICs) were all suppressed by vancomycin treatment. Uptake of orally fed fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC)– dextran into the systemic circulation of (NZW × BXSB)F1 hybrid mice indicated grossly impaired gut barrier function relative to nonautoimmune C57BL/6 mice. At 16 weeks of age, we were able to detect marked bacterial growth in the mesenteric veins, MLNs, and liver, and 2 weeks later also in the spleen but not kidneys, which are affected by deposition of circulating immune complexes. Translocation of microbiota was suppressed by vancomycin or ampicillin, both of which prevented mortality; neomycin was less effective at inhibiting translocation relative to vancomycin.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 3/10/2018 12:38 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith - I think of a healthy gut wall as a mote around castle. Some bad guys might still get though, but not many provided all the "holes" are plugged with a good army.

Its impossible not to have some bad bacteria in our guts, and we are naturally designed to fend them off at the gut wall. Many made and inflammatory foods are like TNT to the wall. Inflammatory is different for different people to some extent.

I did this slowly in different food areas and learned over the years, then fully committed last year with testing after three months.. It costs a little more but I have more shopping options vs a few years ago- its getting more popular now, so I dont spend much more. I'm more active now, thus I eat more too. GF pasta is not really palio, but at least its cheap and is not glutan. If I were broke, Id eat that more.

GF pizza is still a gut bomb, and is costly, and....yuck!

I pan grill a lot of veggies and change taste/theme with spices. I do use fake vegan cheese (costly and spoils fast) on occasion for my home made tacos.
Had initial lyme symptoms late 80's, then again and with bullseye early 90's. Ended ABX for Lyme in 2015. Rebuilding / fine tuning / fixing muscles since then; member "10 Percenters Lyme Club". What an adventure this has been. Hashimotos adds to the enjoyment.

Lymiemomster
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Date Joined Aug 2016
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 3/10/2018 7:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi guys,

https://www.doctorsdata.com/resources/uploads/sample_reports/Sample%20Report%20CSA.PDF

Here is what a sample report looks like, do you think that would be helpful?

Astro, my LLND ordered, so I am not sure if you can order directly. Oh wait, there is a website that does that service but it charges more. I paid $240 cdn which included ups delivery from Canada. Thus was not for the comprehensive test but for the microbiology test. I asked the Dr. about the parasitology one but he said they often don't show up.

Let me look for that website.
15 yr old son sick no school Oct/15 Dx July/16
Migraines extreme brain fog anxiety/ocd insomnia extreme joint pain neuropathy stomach pain
Aug 3/16 Doxy Zithro BB Bab 2
Oct 5 Zithro and rifampin, Bab 2 anxiety/panic attacks -quit rif
Dec Zithro, Artesunate and finishing Bab 2 Mid Dec add japanese knotweed,gou teng
Feb 2017 80% normal back to school, added houttuynia

Lymiemomster
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2016
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 3/10/2018 7:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Apparently Genova Lab's stool test iCloud's testing for zonulin which is helpful for testing for leaky gut
15 yr old son sick no school Oct/15 Dx July/16
Migraines extreme brain fog anxiety/ocd insomnia extreme joint pain neuropathy stomach pain
Aug 3/16 Doxy Zithro BB Bab 2
Oct 5 Zithro and rifampin, Bab 2 anxiety/panic attacks -quit rif
Dec Zithro, Artesunate and finishing Bab 2 Mid Dec add japanese knotweed,gou teng
Feb 2017 80% normal back to school, added houttuynia

Georgia Hunter
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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 3/11/2018 3:48 AM (GMT -6)   
I've been talking about translocation on this site for a long time. I've got some new stuff in the works, just have to finish it.

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1353
   Posted 3/11/2018 10:17 AM (GMT -6)   
Good stuff. There have been plenty of links to this for a while now. But it's good they can show the ability to block the symptoms with antibiotics.

k07
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Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2550
   Posted 3/11/2018 11:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Wahl's diet addresses this. I did it for a few months when I initially had symptoms. My gut seems to be in pretty good shape.

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
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   Posted 3/11/2018 11:25 AM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
Wahl's diet addresses this. I did it for a few months when I initially had symptoms. My gut seems to be in pretty good shape.


What is the Wahl's diet like?

dbwilco
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Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 297
   Posted 3/11/2018 11:37 AM (GMT -6)   
great discussion

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 3/11/2018 10:30 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
k07 said...
Wahl's diet addresses this. I did it for a few months when I initially had symptoms. My gut seems to be in pretty good shape.


What is the Wahl's diet like?


Dr Terry Wahl is known for reversing her wheelchair bound MS symptoms.

She has you tube vids.

I dont remember the details, but her diet is like Paleo, but way more veggies.

What she fails to bring up is she also used antibiotics for a while. Bingo!

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/12/2018 8:19:21 AM (GMT-6)


Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 882
   Posted 3/11/2018 10:40 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
k07 said...
Wahl's diet addresses this. I did it for a few months when I initially had symptoms. My gut seems to be in pretty good shape.


What is the Wahl's diet like?


/www.furtherfood.com/10-step-guide-heal-body-with-food-with-doctor-wahls/
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