Anyone tried pulsing high dose crypto for babesia?

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sandyfeet
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/10/2018 9:15 AM (GMT -6)   
I never even considered babesia initially but I had a massive herx when I first added in crypto. Once I reached full dose the babesia insomnia largely resolved (and switched to bartonella insomnia sigh) but I still have other clear symptoms. I know five months is the minimum for treating babesia, I’m about 4-5 months in now. For the last two I’ve been experimenting with upping my crypto dose for 1-3 days every week or two weeks to see if it brings things down further. I definitely noticed it the first two times. Now things are stable but still present. Wondering if anyone has tried pulsing higher doses on top of maintaining a steady lower dose. Thoughts? Experiences?

Most of my babesia symptoms are what I think of as autonomic nervous system issues. The big one was insomnia that manifested as one long period of light dream like sleep. Neither awake enough to get up nor asleep enough to feel rested. That’s largely under control right now so I’m hoping that means I’ve knocked it back a bit but I’m still suffering pretty much daily from what I consider nuisance babesia symptoms. I get chilled after drinking anything cold and can only warm back up in a bath or shower, I aspirate food or mucus (sorry tmi) pretty frequently and I have an apnea breathing pattern during the day and chronic yawning during yoga which I guess is my milder form of air hunger. I guess I’m pretty lucky to have a bunch of mild markers for babesia that make it easy to know when it’s finally in remission and only the aspiration is a major problem for me - I try to look on the positive side that if I eventually get an infection in the lungs I might warrant a round of antibiotics that might help knock everything else back a bit and the mean time I’m trying to learn the huffing breathing technique lol.

Thanks for any thoughts on this line for finishing babesia as I feel like I’m so close to getting this one down so I can focus on the others.

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1682
   Posted 3/10/2018 9:30 AM (GMT -6)   
I have not tried crypto yet. I'm sure others will respond.

I've seen some sources list those symptoms as babesia while others list them as bartonella.

Are you taking anything other than crypto? You may want to add sida acuta which treats both.

sandyfeet
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/10/2018 9:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks WalkingByFaith. I'm on Sida although it's not one I've noticed any specific effect from. I've only noticed a specific response to a couple of the herbs - I'm not especially sensitive I guess, not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing as it gives me less instinct to go on.

Right now I'm on most but not all of Buhner's protocols for the main three (BBB)
- Knotweed
- Red Sage (Dan Shen)
- Chinese Skullcap
- both Cat's Claw's
- Cordyceps
- Ashwagandha and Rhodiola
- Red Root
- Hawthorn
- Hoyuttania
- Sida Acuta
- Alchornea
- Crypto
- Bidens
- Isatis (pulsed according to Buhner)
- andrographis
- flacoxin (a mix from St Francis)
- Plus NAC and Quercertin fairly consistently some other supplements sporadically

I've done Eleuthro but I'm not taking it currently.

I think one of the hardest things for me has been disentangling which symptoms are which. I get a lot of nausea on and off and I can't pin it down at all to one specific cause and it seems to be linked to all of them. Some things like bone pain are a cinch to peg which is why I've suspected bart since the beginning lol. It was fascinating for me when I finally found a conversation about the central sleep apnea and babesia as I'd noticed this breathing pattern durning the day a couple of years ago but not known what to make of it. Once I saw an article as describing babesia as affecting the autonomic nervous system all these minor nuisance symptoms seemed to make sense for me at least.

Lots of people recommend getting Babesia out of the way first and it seems to be the easiest for me to wrap my head around at least since it's similar to malaria and there are lots of ideas out there. It would be such a nice feeling to be able to say 'one down' 'N to go' :D
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1682
   Posted 3/10/2018 10:04 AM (GMT -6)   
I didn't see artemesia (or the other forms) in there. Have you done that at all?

Also, if you feel babesia is the culprit, you could try Byron White A-Bab. His formulas are highly concentrated so they presumably should be quite potent.

Then again, if you're responding well to the crypto, then maybe pulsing high doses is worth a try. Just be sure to check any precautions. I seem to recall someone stating that herb messed up their gut flora. May have read that on Real Food Rebel's blog.

Szabo246
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 484
   Posted 3/10/2018 12:53 PM (GMT -6)   
I’m taking cryptolepis not at full dose yet I’m on 30 drops a day. I’m not pulsing either I didn’t think you needed to pulse the herbs

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32672
   Posted 3/10/2018 1:20 PM (GMT -6)   
Szabo246 said...
I’m taking cryptolepis not at full dose yet I’m on 30 drops a day. I’m not pulsing either I didn’t think you needed to pulse the herbs


You're right about that - no pulsing needed.

And...I don't think it's recommended either (unless you're taking the Artemisinin form of Artemisia)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/10/2018 2:23 PM (GMT -6)   
Artemisinin is one of the herbs I've been holding off on as a last resort - it feels a little risky, complicated and yikes is it ever expensive. A while back I ran across Buhner as saying "I no longer recommend artemisinin or artemisia. It can work but whatever you are treating Sida acuta will work better, especially for babesia or bartonella" so I'm sticking with things he considers essential from his babesia protocol for the moment.

I'm only pulsing the higer doses of crypto but staying at the full dose of 1/2 tsp per day continuously if that makes sense. In his herbal antibiotics book Buhner mentions a study that found higher doses effective at clearing malaria in 3-5 days. Buhner didn't recommend taking these high doses for longer than that although long term lower doses are generally considered safe. So I'm experimenting with 1 tsp 3 x a day for 1-3 days at a time; 1/2 tsp the rest of the time. That was the idea I'm wondering if anyone else has tried out and if so if they have any experiences to share.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/10/2018 2:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Oh and thanks for the reminder on gut flora WalkingbyFaith. I spent quite a long time before I was bitten sorting all that out so I try to be really careful with my gut flora. I drink a lot of water kefir but I should probably do some more above that smile
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

dbwilco
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Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 263
   Posted 3/10/2018 2:58 PM (GMT -6)   
i always though bart was autonomic systemmmm....who knows anymore?

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/10/2018 5:13 PM (GMT -6)   
lol - dbwilco - I'm finding trying to separate which infection is which is quite the tangled mess. But maybe that's just the neuro-lyme (or is that neuro-bart?). Not to be too flippant.

I found the recent mention that bart affects the vagus nerve interesting. I'm not sure if I'll ever separate which is which.

Post Edited (sandyfeet) : 3/10/2018 4:30:48 PM (GMT-7)


Rikky1
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2860
   Posted 3/10/2018 7:53 PM (GMT -6)   
i've taken tons of artemisinin over the past 3 years and no issues. i've also pulsed crypto at 1/2tsp 2x/day. Dr. J in DC who a top LLMD will add both of these + Enula to his babesia protocol.

there's so much overlap with symptoms from these bugs who knows + you can have parasites and other bacteria that could be pathogenic that science doesn't know anything about. the good thing is the herbs and abx are usually broad spectrum so they mess with their mechanisms of action no matter the bug.

>>It can work but whatever you are treating Sida acuta will work better, especially for babesia or bartonella" so I'm sticking with things he considers essential from his babesia protocol for the moment.

i find this false with me. sida did next to nothing for me even at high doses. cryptolepis worked better but was not enough to clear the infection. frankly i'd be quite surprised if cryptolepis alone could clear babesia.

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/10/2018 8:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks so much for the experience feedback Rikky1! Artemisinin is one that scares me since I have zero medical support for any checks on liver or kidney function so I've been trying to start with the safest stuff I can find.

I know it's very much a YMMV sort of thing but this is where the big value is for me in hearing other's stories. Some people are super sensitive to the herbs so they can tell exactly what works for them - the only ones I've noticed anything in particular with are crypto, isatis, knotweed and rhodiola (where has this wonderful adaptogenic herb been all my life!). Everything else I'm mostly taking on faith and it seems that most people really need to mix things up here and there to get beyond those initial gains.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32672
   Posted 3/11/2018 12:38 AM (GMT -6)   
dbwilco said...
i always though bart was autonomic systemmmm....who knows anymore?


Yes it certainly can be. I have POTS that may be from bart - and POTS is a dysfunction with the ANS.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 263
   Posted 3/12/2018 3:31 AM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet...how would you differentiate babs from bart insomnia?

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/12/2018 1:19 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm guessing based on some of the descriptions that others have given and the fact that what I call my-bart insomnia tends to occur most frequently when I'm also having a lot of bone pain. Whether that's legit or not I definitely have two different kinds of insomnia - what I think of as babesia-insomnia is one long continuous light dream state sleep where I'm not exactly awake but I'm never in deep sleep either. What I think of as bart-insomnia is the kind where I'm completely awake for hours at a time and might as well get up and read for a while. I tend to flip between the two styles from time to time. I'd be very interested to know if anyone else has noticed a distinct pattern. What's yours like?
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

dbwilco
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 263
   Posted 3/12/2018 3:51 PM (GMT -6)   
ive had both of those...had the all night, never fell asleep really, or at least never in a dream state (last night), and i often have what my llmd calls adhd sleep....where i will fall asleep be in a dream, and then every 2 hrs or so im awake, and have to go through the whole falling asleep again process, just to wake up again and again...

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 285
   Posted 3/12/2018 7:49 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm sorry to hear it dbwilco - insomnia is probably one of the hardest symptoms for me at least because it makes it so hard to have the energy to deal with everything else. Things aren't perfect for me sleep wise yet but I am so much better than I was before I started treatment. Whenever I think that I'm not making progress I just have to think back to where I was sleep-wise a year ago!

I recently came across a mention of the term Alpha Wave Intrusion - I never bothered with a sleep study since I'm fairly confident that my problems stem from lyme and co and I suspect that they can't or won't help with that - but once I heard this term I strongly suspect that is what is going on in some of the sleep disturbances we experience. :I

I love the term ADHD sleep! That nails it perfectly! I wish my MD had that sense of humour.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017
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