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OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 3/10/2018 7:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Do Bartonella Quintana and hensleae have flagella?

I've recived my western blot from Igenex and i only have p41 positive IgM and IgG... for lyme

LymeSick 🌟
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 3/10/2018 7:22 PM (GMT -6)   
From: /microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bartonella_quintana


B. quintana, as opposed to related species B. bacilliformis and B. clarrideiae that possess flagella, uses a twitching movement caused by fimbriae.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 3/11/2018 1:36 AM (GMT -6)   
Hmm...I've not heard this - that any bart species have a flagella. Thats a new one .


I've read syphillis, dental spirochetes, relapsing fever, Pinta and Yaws,

And you know it can be lyme.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 3/11/2018 11:26 AM (GMT -6)   
Lots of bacteria have a flagella. I am not sure if it specifically has to be a spirochete with a flagella. If it is a spirochete than the list dwindles significantly to those that Girlie mentioned. I am not sure how the test could tell the difference between spiro and non-spiro flagella.

E coli and salmonella have a flagella.
/microbeonline.com/bacterial-flagella-structure-importance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 3/11/2018 11:38 AM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
Lots of bacteria have a flagella. I am not sure if it specifically has to be a spirochete with a flagella. If it is a spirochete than the list dwindles significantly to those that Girlie mentioned. I am not sure how the test could tell the difference between spiro and non-spiro flagella.

E coli and salmonella have a flagella.
/microbeonline.com/bacterial-flagella-structure-importance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/


Okay that makes sense,

So it must be that band 41 on the WB is limited to a spirochete then.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 3/11/2018 2:28 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
k07 said...
Lots of bacteria have a flagella. I am not sure if it specifically has to be a spirochete with a flagella. If it is a spirochete than the list dwindles significantly to those that Girlie mentioned. I am not sure how the test could tell the difference between spiro and non-spiro flagella.

E coli and salmonella have a flagella.
/microbeonline.com/bacterial-flagella-structure-importance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/


Okay that makes sense,

So it must be that band 41 on the WB is limited to a spirochete then.


You’d think, but I’m not so sure. How would a spirochete flagella differ from a non spirochete flagella? Band 41 is seen in just about everyone. I am inclined to think it can be both. I wish I could get an answer from an expert on this.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 3/11/2018 2:52 PM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
Girlie said...
k07 said...
Lots of bacteria have a flagella. I am not sure if it specifically has to be a spirochete with a flagella. If it is a spirochete than the list dwindles significantly to those that Girlie mentioned. I am not sure how the test could tell the difference between spiro and non-spiro flagella.

E coli and salmonella have a flagella.
/microbeonline.com/bacterial-flagella-structure-importance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/


Okay that makes sense,

So it must be that band 41 on the WB is limited to a spirochete then.


You’d think, but I’m not so sure. How would a spirochete flagella differ from a non spirochete flagella? Band 41 is seen in just about everyone. I am inclined to think it can be both. I wish I could get an answer from an expert on this.


Reason I say this is because it is included in test results to determine a positive result for lyme. If it can by anything...then I doubt it would be...no?



Positive: If two or more of the following bands are present: 23, 31, 34, 39, 41 and 93 kDa.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 3/11/2018 3:39 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
k07 said...
Girlie said...
k07 said...
Lots of bacteria have a flagella. I am not sure if it specifically has to be a spirochete with a flagella. If it is a spirochete than the list dwindles significantly to those that Girlie mentioned. I am not sure how the test could tell the difference between spiro and non-spiro flagella.

E coli and salmonella have a flagella.
/microbeonline.com/bacterial-flagella-structure-importance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/


Okay that makes sense,

So it must be that band 41 on the WB is limited to a spirochete then.


You’d think, but I’m not so sure. How would a spirochete flagella differ from a non spirochete flagella? Band 41 is seen in just about everyone. I am inclined to think it can be both. I wish I could get an answer from an expert on this.


Reason I say this is because it is included in test results to determine a positive result for lyme. If it can by anything...then I doubt it would be...no?

Positive: If two or more of the following bands are present: 23, 31, 34, 39, 41 and 93 kDa.


Well, I think that is why it must be paired with a more lyme specific band. On its own, I personally wouldn’t jump to lyme. I also would only go by results from a good lab - like igenex. My labcorp blot results are very inconsistent and don’t look anything like my 2 igenex tests.

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 3/11/2018 3:40 PM (GMT -6)   
LymeMd says that p41 is specific for lyme (spirochete with flagella not bacteria with flagella)

I come from the ER... i couldn't breath, my legs were twitching and numbness... it's a hell... I thought that it was my rest day...

I have a occpital pain lymph node... i know bartonella make it... but could be lyme?

Post Edited (OriolCarol) : 3/11/2018 2:45:15 PM (GMT-6)


OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 3/11/2018 3:44 PM (GMT -6)   
I have giG at titles of 1:128 for Quintana and henselae but i don't know if it means that i have bacteremia...

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 3/11/2018 3:49 PM (GMT -6)   
My cat never had fleas... but he was sick when he was young... now he has bad breath but he's healty or thats what veterinary says...

I made a lot of mistakes and if i could go to past i would make another things... i wanted to treat it fast because i tought that i was at the end... and now i have a lot of fears...

Aerose91
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 550
   Posted 3/11/2018 4:13 PM (GMT -6)   
I have band 41 as well and my LLMD dismissed it. "Everyone has band 41" he said

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 3/11/2018 4:16 PM (GMT -6)   
Everyone? My girlfriend has tested for lyme, my mom, my sister and my fater and they don't have p41 band.

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 3/11/2018 5:40 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
Everyone? My girlfriend has tested for lyme, my mom, my sister and my fater and they don't have p41 band.


Through what lab? I don’t have 41 through labcorp but I do with IGenex.

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 3/11/2018 5:45 PM (GMT -6)   
As for you, if your immune system is not strong it may not be able to mount a response. I wouldn’t discount lyme. Did you do any abx before test? If you feel better with treatment I think that is the only wayto know if you are on the right path. Were you exploring mold too? I can’t recall...

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 3/11/2018 6:49 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
My cat never had fleas... but he was sick when he was young... now he has bad breath but he's healty or thats what veterinary says...

I made a lot of mistakes and if i could go to past i would make another things... i wanted to treat it fast because i tought that i was at the end... and now i have a lot of fears...


Oriol - it is likely that you have both lyme and bartonella.

and..maybe even babesia.

Some LLMD's will treat all three B's to cover those infections. The one I'm now seeing does.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 3/11/2018 6:53 PM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
Girlie said...
k07 said...
Girlie said...
k07 said...
Lots of bacteria have a flagella. I am not sure if it specifically has to be a spirochete with a flagella. If it is a spirochete than the list dwindles significantly to those that Girlie mentioned. I am not sure how the test could tell the difference between spiro and non-spiro flagella.

E coli and salmonella have a flagella.
/microbeonline.com/bacterial-flagella-structure-importance-and-examples-of-flagellated-bacteria/


Okay that makes sense,

So it must be that band 41 on the WB is limited to a spirochete then.


You’d think, but I’m not so sure. How would a spirochete flagella differ from a non spirochete flagella? Band 41 is seen in just about everyone. I am inclined to think it can be both. I wish I could get an answer from an expert on this.


Reason I say this is because it is included in test results to determine a positive result for lyme. If it can by anything...then I doubt it would be...no?

Positive: If two or more of the following bands are present: 23, 31, 34, 39, 41 and 93 kDa.


Well, I think that is why it must be paired with a more lyme specific band. On its own, I personally wouldn’t jump to lyme. I also would only go by results from a good lab - like igenex. My labcorp blot results are very inconsistent and don’t look anything like my 2 igenex tests.


But they all have to be paired with another band from the list...even the lyme specific ones - you're not positive unless there's 2 or more from that list.

IDK - but I think it wouldn't be included at all if "lots of bacteria have a flagella" - Then why even include it, right?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 3/11/2018 8:46 PM (GMT -6)   
I have no idea. I don't know enough about it to say one way or another for sure. I am not sure who I could even ask to answer that question.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 3/11/2018 8:58 PM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
I have no idea. I don't know enough about it to say one way or another for sure. I am not sure who I could even ask to answer that question.


Maybe Igenex?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

LymeSick 🌟
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 3/11/2018 10:28 PM (GMT -6)   
Yeah I agree with Girlie, I had good results with Igenex
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