First time starting Buhner

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RJD76
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Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 3/12/2018 1:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi all,

history of neurolyme, bart and babs from 2007, diagnosed 2012. Ten months of abx and 10 months with Eva Sapi. This was about 4 years ago. Felt pretty good after treatment except for headpressure and tinnitus. And now it's back with a vengeance, i think.

Severe lower back pain (cannot walk actually), testicular pains, some chest and rib pains. Also severe burning knee pains. First time doing Buhner's. I have JK capsules (500mg) Dragon botanicals, Cat's Claw capsules (500mg), Cryptolepis, Sida Acuta, Houttuynia and Chinese Cat's Claw with 1 part kudzu (All tinctures from woodland). Also have Andrographis capsules.

Some questions: I know there is more to his protocol, but is this OK to start with? Or perhaps it's enough?

Does it matter which herb i start with?

And what other herbs do you think I should add, if any?

Thanks a lot!

Tommy

goshawk
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 2123
   Posted 3/12/2018 4:42 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi and welcome to our forum,

Sorry you have Lyme and co.
Herbals are very potent so its advised to start slow and with one herbal at a time.

The reasoning is so that if you have an allergic reaction to a herbal you will then know which one caused it.

For tinctures start with only a few drops the first day and see how it goes. If all is well take a few drops 2X a day for a few days. Begin increasing if you are doing ok. and building up to 3X a day and more drops .

For capsules I would only start with one every other day and see what happens.


I would start with the JK, then the cats claw then andrographis.

I would make sure to be detoxing, Epsom salt baths, lemon juice with water etc.

The sida , crypto and hout I would hold off on for a bit until you see how the other three are going.
They are strong but excellent herbals to add in at some point.

Kudzu should be helpful for pain.

Sida helped me with the head pressure.


I know it will take time but its better than having a huge setback if you are allergic or have a severe herx.



Always check for side affects and contradictions as I am not a medical professional.

Others should be along to help with advice also, take care, Jo

Post Edited (goshawk) : 3/12/2018 6:36:47 PM (GMT-6)


RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 3/13/2018 1:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks so much for your reply, goshawk!

So work up to full dose on one herb before starting a new one, maybe?

Take all herbs away from food?

Also ok to put all tinctures in the same glass of water when you reach more herbs?

Thanks again!

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 3/17/2018 2:06 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks so much for your reply, goshawk!

So work up to full dose on one herb before starting a new one, maybe?

Take all herbs away from food?

Also ok to put all tinctures in the same glass of water when you reach more herbs?

Thanks again!

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32691
   Posted 3/17/2018 2:49 AM (GMT -6)   
RJD76 said...
Thanks so much for your reply, goshawk!

So work up to full dose on one herb before starting a new one, maybe?

Take all herbs away from food?

Also ok to put all tinctures in the same glass of water when you reach more herbs?

Thanks again!


No, don't work up to full dose on one herb. Just start with one...and slowly increase it a few drops every few days...and when you're taking a low does 3X per day (eg. 5 drops 3X day) then add in the second herb and do the same...and then the third herb.


When you have them all in at low dose...then slowly increase each of them one at a time.

The reason for this is Buhner states that the herbs work synergistically, so it's best to get them all in at low dose...
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32691
   Posted 3/17/2018 2:50 AM (GMT -6)   
RJD76 said...
Thanks so much for your reply, goshawk!

So work up to full dose on one herb before starting a new one, maybe?

Take all herbs away from food?

Also ok to put all tinctures in the same glass of water when you reach more herbs?

Thanks again!
You can take them right before meals...so, they're fine with food.

And, yes you can put them together in a glass of water.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

swimman
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 30
   Posted 3/17/2018 4:47 PM (GMT -6)   
Like you, my head pressure has returned along with many of your other symptoms listed. Maybe the same tick got both of us!

Just got Buhner's Babesia book a couple of days ago. Going to start with CSA (crypto, sida, alchornea) next Friday when I return from a business trip ( not sure how I'm going to survive the week away). Also will order his other recommended potions while away. Very anxious to start and like you, am hoping for some relief as I sit here in bed typing this while feeling like I may not wake up tomorrow.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32691
   Posted 3/17/2018 6:47 PM (GMT -6)   
Swimman - I've read that his latest Babesia protocol is Crypto/Sida/Bidens pilosa (instead of Alchornea cordifolia. That is the 2015 book you're referring to?


Although the Alchornea cordifolia has been used for several years...so it's most likely effective too.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

swimman
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2016
Total Posts : 30
   Posted 3/17/2018 7:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, the 2015 book. If that's the case, I'll add Bidens to the mix! Thanks for the info.

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2438
   Posted 3/19/2018 12:56 PM (GMT -6)   
I know this is contrary to popular opinion, but I don't necessarily recommend doing one herbal at a time. I started off that way, and it took an eternity to get up to reasonable doses for us by the time I added a bunch of herbals in. For us, I wish we would have started off with the combination herbals (we primarily use Woodland Essence). It would have saved us a lot of time (in our case). They offer some combination herbals on the website, but the problem is that it may not be the best fit combination for you.

If I were to do it again, I'd start with a combination herbal. If we had a bad reaction to a herbal in it, then I'd restart individually. If not, then we'd save a ton of time in treatment.

Although I agree about going up slowly, I feel it was much too slow for how I initially implemented it. Lessons learned (for us) for sure!

Just something to think about from a different perspective. smile
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2438
   Posted 3/19/2018 12:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Per OP:
I have JK capsules (500mg) Dragon botanicals, Cat's Claw capsules (500mg), Cryptolepis, Sida Acuta, Houttuynia and Chinese Cat's Claw with 1 part kudzu (All tinctures from woodland). Also have Andrographis capsules.


Personally, if it were me, I'd probably start with JK, cat's claws, and kudzu. Those seem more in the standard protocol. JK is very common for taking as a starter (at least recommended frequently on this board for starting with JK).
I'd add in the rest (Cryptolepis, Sida Acuta, Houttuynia) later/separately, as those seem stronger to me in hitting the infections/coinfections.

That's just me though...????
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1682
   Posted 3/19/2018 5:18 PM (GMT -6)   
RJD76 said...
Hi all,

history of neurolyme, bart and babs from 2007, diagnosed 2012. Ten months of abx and 10 months with Eva Sapi. This was about 4 years ago. Felt pretty good after treatment except for headpressure and tinnitus. And now it's back with a vengeance, i think.

Severe lower back pain (cannot walk actually), testicular pains, some chest and rib pains. Also severe burning knee pains. First time doing Buhner's. I have JK capsules (500mg) Dragon botanicals, Cat's Claw capsules (500mg), Cryptolepis, Sida Acuta, Houttuynia and Chinese Cat's Claw with 1 part kudzu (All tinctures from woodland). Also have Andrographis capsules.

Some questions: I know there is more to his protocol, but is this OK to start with? Or perhaps it's enough?

Does it matter which herb i start with?

And what other herbs do you think I should add, if any?

Thanks a lot!

Tommy


Hi, Tommy! You've gotten lots of good responses already. I'm doing Buhner's protocols, too. To answer your questions. Yes those are OK to start with. I would start with knotweed and kudzu first. Those are probably the least likely to cause a herx (though knotweed can for some).

I would then add Chinese cat's claw and houttuynia. Reasons: Buhner says the Chinese cat's claw (Gou teng) is crucial for neuroborreliosis, and it doesn't cause worsened symptoms for me, while regular cat's claw does. The symptoms you mentioned are from bartonella IMO, so I would add houttuynia earlier rather than later. I actually use the IHA formula, and it was the first herb I took that gave me any symptom relief. Everyone is different, though.

Then cat's claw followed by the others. I would think each of these could easily cause a herx (worsening of symptoms or new symptoms), so be forewarned.

Hopefully, you will get some symptom relief pretty quickly. Some people do. I seem to be one of the unlucky ones who are super sensitive and have to take ridiculously tiny doses.

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 4/6/2018 7:44 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks so much guys, for all replies!

I've been on JK for some time. Bottle says 1 capsule 3x a day. Are u supposed to go higher?

Then added Chinese Cat's Claw and Kudzu since they're mixed in one bottle.

So far I'm on 4 drops twice daily. Read somewhere that herbs only stays in your body 3-4 hours, therefore needs to be taken up to 6x a day. True?

Can't really say that I have any relief in symptoms yet. But maybe some symptoms are worse after starting. More pains on top of my hands, quite severe testicular pains (only right) and lower back pain.

The testicular pains and lower back pains are killing me, other symptoms I can tolerate with no problems.

I had similar testicular pains back in 2013. My family doc put me on 10 days of 100mg Doxy for something other than lyme, and the testicular pains dissappeared.

I went to see my family doctor today, and she is willing to help me even though she has not diagnosed me with lyme.

I never done Doxy for Lyme before, but read that it is supposed to be good for lyme arthritis. It is quite tempting atm with all my pains.

Question: If I chose to do it, what dose of Doxy would you recommend? Several websites says 100mg twice a day for 30 days.

Any other abx to go with it? Amoxicillin?

I have been on abx for 10 months altogether, about 5 years ago. Lyme for 11 years. Felt good after last treatment in 2012-2013.

Maybe I'm just expecting relief too sonn with this herb protocol..

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Tommy

multifacetedme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2016
Total Posts : 1586
   Posted 4/6/2018 12:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Tommy,
With the herbal protocol, it will take at least 3 months to notice an improvement. You may notice herxing though, which is a sign you are hitting something. I love Buhner's work. I haven't had access to anti-biotics, so I can't comment there. I take my herbs 3 x a day, and haven't needed to take them 3-4 hours, and it was effective.
In December of 2015. I thought I was dying. I began to research symptoms and began considering lyme in January of 2016 and the Horowitz Questionnaire convinced me to take immediate right action: changed diet, used Buhner recommended herbs, followed advice here. Today I feel GREAT and although I have some remaining symptoms, my health is basically back.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32691
   Posted 4/6/2018 12:58 PM (GMT -6)   
RJD76 said...
Thanks so much guys, for all replies!

I've been on JK for some time. Bottle says 1 capsule 3x a day. Are u supposed to go higher?

Then added Chinese Cat's Claw and Kudzu since they're mixed in one bottle.

So far I'm on 4 drops twice daily. Read somewhere that herbs only stays in your body 3-4 hours, therefore needs to be taken up to 6x a day. True?

Can't really say that I have any relief in symptoms yet. But maybe some symptoms are worse after starting. More pains on top of my hands, quite severe testicular pains (only right) and lower back pain.

The testicular pains and lower back pains are killing me, other symptoms I can tolerate with no problems.

I had similar testicular pains back in 2013. My family doc put me on 10 days of 100mg Doxy for something other than lyme, and the testicular pains dissappeared.

I went to see my family doctor today, and she is willing to help me even though she has not diagnosed me with lyme.

I never done Doxy for Lyme before, but read that it is supposed to be good for lyme arthritis. It is quite tempting atm with all my pains.

Question: If I chose to do it, what dose of Doxy would you recommend? Several websites says 100mg twice a day for 30 days.

Any other abx to go with it? Amoxicillin?

I have been on abx for 10 months altogether, about 5 years ago. Lyme for 11 years. Felt good after last treatment in 2012-2013.

Maybe I'm just expecting relief too sonn with this herb protocol..

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Tommy


The doxy dose is 200 mg twice daily.

I took amoxy with biaxin.

With doxy, you can add azithromycin or biaxin.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 4/6/2018 4:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks a lot, Girlie!

This is just to get my symptoms under control since i am in extreme pain at the moment.

What would be the doses for azithromycin or biaxin to go with Doxy?

And also Amoxy if i chose that instead?

A month should be enough before i hit the herbs again?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32691
   Posted 4/6/2018 4:25 PM (GMT -6)   
RJD76 said...
Thanks a lot, Girlie!

This is just to get my symptoms under control since i am in extreme pain at the moment.

What would be the doses for azithromycin or biaxin to go with Doxy?

And also Amoxy if i chose that instead?

A month should be enough before i hit the herbs again?


biaxin - I was prescribed 500 mg twice daily.

I've seen azithromycin prescribed the same dose.

I was prescribed amoxy at 1000 mg three X per day. (very short half-life = 3X dosing schedule)
I was also prescribed probenecid to be taken with it. (But not all LL Dr.'s do prescribe that)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 4/6/2018 4:36 PM (GMT -6)   
I see, thanks. How long did you take it for?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32691
   Posted 4/6/2018 4:54 PM (GMT -6)   
I took amoxy for 3 months and biaxin for 3 months (2 months with amoxy, and one month with Ceftin)


I had a rash...and that's when my LLND told me to stop the biaxin.

I've been on it since and no rash...so it was most likely from the infection...not an allergy.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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