US health care costs more than any other developed country (we knew that)

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astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 3/20/2018 6:26 PM (GMT -6)   
/www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/13/us-healthcare-costs-causes-drug-prices-salaries

"'For example, the average salary for a general practice physician in the other countries was between $86,607 and $154,126. In the US, the average salary was $218,173.

Per capita spending for prescription drugs in other nations ranged from $466 to $939. In the US, per capita spending was $1,443.

The US also spends more on administrative costs. Other nations spend between 1%-3% to administer their health plans. Administrative costs are 8% of total health spending in the US."

This bubble needs bursting.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1903
   Posted 3/20/2018 6:44 PM (GMT -6)   
There's a couple things that shouldn't be "profit based". I don't mean that literally. Of course there has to be profit margin and money made to pay for things and people, but it shouldn't be at this rate/level. It should be enough to pay for cost, admin fees, a really good salary for doctors in that 150K range instead of the 218K range. Pharmaceutical companies should be "rich" but not super duper Uber rich.

People in this industry should get paid to the amount where they can live really comfortably but not be multi-millionaires.

There's plenty of industries that exist to get super rich, people's health should not be one of them.

Education being another example but we don't have to go there.
Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41
Ehrlichia (Igenex)
Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

ABX Treatment: 03/2016-04/2016; 7/2017-9/2017
Buhner Protocol for Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella and Mycoplasma (treating everything to be on the safe side): May 2016 - Dec. 2016; 8/2017 - Present

The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
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   Posted 3/20/2018 6:45 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
This bubble needs bursting.


Amen, brother.

Back in January, four days after quitting my job, I cut my finger while peeling some potatoes. We couldn't stop the bleeding, and, because it was so late, no Urgent Care clinics were open. So, we had to go to the Emergency Room. I had several injections to numb the finger and I received three stitches.

The total amount billed by the hospital and the physicians' group (the doctors aren't employees of the hospital) was over $1,700. That was before any network-negotiated charges with insurance. The bill had a line item showing: "Surgical Services: $730."

After all was said-and-done, my out-of-pocket cost was $603.

This is just a theory, but, had I NOT been insured and paid cash, I bet it would have been cheaper.

The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
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   Posted 3/20/2018 7:01 PM (GMT -6)   
While the U.S. Healthcare system does some great and heroic things (Trauma Medicine), it definitely has issues.

In my opinion, one of them is continuing to invest is the EFFECTS of poor diet/lifestyle and not focusing more on PREVENTION. If your sink is overflowing because the drain is clogged, the answer is not to keep using a mop and bucket. The first task should be to turn-off the faucet.

I mean, good grief, we have McDonald's and Wendy's restaurants in hospitals. How insane is that?

"Sickcare" (versus Healthcare) is certainly profitable, but I've long asserted that Prevention could be just as profitable, if not more so. More importantly, though, we're OBLIGATED to do better, because we know better.

Undoubtedly, there are many things that need to change. One of them is the reimbursement system.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1903
   Posted 3/20/2018 7:15 PM (GMT -6)   
The Dude Abides said...
While the U.S. Healthcare system does some great and heroic things (Trauma Medicine), it definitely has issues.

In my opinion, one of them is continuing to invest is the EFFECTS of poor diet/lifestyle and not focusing more on PREVENTION. If your sink is overflowing because the drain is clogged, the answer is not to keep using a mop and bucket. The first task should be to turn-off the faucet.


Absolutely. There's more money in treating symptoms and after effects then preventing them. So there's no rush there, for them to change their paradigm.

The main stream medical/scientific community is just now getting around to understanding and promoting probiotics (a great way to prevent many illnesses).

I recently saw two things on Netflix. One was just about probiotics in general and it promoting people eat it daily. And another where they are going start using the good bacteria and the enzymes they give off as "natural" ABX since everything is becoming resistant to traditional ABX.

I just shook my head. Like why are you guys so late. Other cultures and civilization throughout human history (and today) already know this and probiotics is a big part of their normal diet.

We lymies have known this for years (some of lymies decades). Why are we more health conscious and savvy than the western medical community?
Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41
Ehrlichia (Igenex)
Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

ABX Treatment: 03/2016-04/2016; 7/2017-9/2017
Buhner Protocol for Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella and Mycoplasma (treating everything to be on the safe side): May 2016 - Dec. 2016; 8/2017 - Present

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2041
   Posted 3/20/2018 7:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Great discussion guys!! I agree with all the comments.

I went with my dad to his cancer doctor appointment the other day. While we were there I mentioned how he eats way too much sugar and that sugar suppresses the immune system. The PA said she didn't think sugar suppressed the immune system!

I really think it's willful ignorance for the most part, but I still can't wrap my head around it. I grew up believing that only the SMARTEST people could be doctors or scientists. I never felt like I was that kind of smart even though I was an honor student. Yet, every doctor I've seen since I've had Lyme acts like they don't have a lick of sense and couldn't think and reason their way out of a paper sack. How can they be smart enough to get through medical school and dumb enough to come out knowing next to nothing about a human body and how it functions nor the implications of our environment on our health and wellbeing. They act like anyone who talks about such things are loonies out in left field somewhere.

I just don't get it. Its like they put 100% faith and trust in whatever they're told in medical school or by the AMA or the CDC or whatever they read in a textbook, without ever thinking logically and reasoning about the information to determine if it's even valid or not. It's ridiculous. They do the same with lab results. I don't think any of my doctors even look at the actual numbers. I think they just look to see if anything is flagged out of the normal range. I don't think they even notice that the "normal range" gets shifted just about every time I get labs done even when all of it is through the same lab - Labcorp. Don't they realize that labs adjust the "normal" range based on actual results. In other words, the sicker the American population gets, the further the lab ranges are adjusted to reflect sick as "normal." Do any doctors besides Ritchie Shoemaker, the mold guru, even notice that or set their own ranges based on non-sick people as opposed to the vast majority of obese, diabetic, allergenic Americans.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5099
   Posted 3/20/2018 9:44 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith - you said it perfect.

We expect them to diagnose like "Dr House Md", TV show(minus the arrogance and alcoholism), and half the time get someone who cant connect the dots in a coloring book. Many do have the arrogance of him though. This blows my mind.

I've had some lighter discussions about this with others, the conclusion: Med school requires a great memory and the ability to use it under stress. The degree does not require diagnostic skills. My functional MD told me this, and is why he went into functional medicine- he can think on his feet and is not surrounded by idiots.

A bio-medical engineer buddy of mine, has had many business based outings/visits with MD's as part of his job, he cant believe the mentally of some Drs he dealt with. He got to know them, almost on a non-professional bases, golfing ect. Some of them really are in it only for the money- they flat out told him this. He left that industry after 20 years.

I will add PhD's of other sciences can sometimes be the same way (I have worked with them), thats why they invented Velcro "laced" shoes and pocket protectors.

To rule out other non-lyme muscle / skeletal diseases, I managed to get an appointment with a Dr of a very well known world class athlete (from the late 90's). I thought this would be good, like I hit the jack- pot. Nope! This Dr was the most arrogant woman I have ever spoken to in my entire life. I told her I was treating lyme and, as a past athlete, I just wanted to make sure this symptom was not something else. Boy did I get the "Lyme does not exist after a few weeks lecture". She was almost foaming at the mouth. I was shocked.

That said, this nut job of a Dr did line me up with a specialty hospital for some very specific testing done by other Drs, some with a few brains and compassion, still not into the genius mentality I was expecting though.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/20/2018 9:45:24 PM (GMT-6)


Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 3/20/2018 10:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Did it say where Canada was ranked on the list?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

jackinthebox
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2017
Total Posts : 69
   Posted 3/20/2018 10:57 PM (GMT -6)   
The Dude Abides said...
astroman said...
This bubble needs bursting.


Amen, brother.

Back in January, four days after quitting my job, I cut my finger while peeling some potatoes. We couldn't stop the bleeding, and, because it was so late, no Urgent Care clinics were open. So, we had to go to the Emergency Room. I had several injections to numb the finger and I received three stitches.

The total amount billed by the hospital and the physicians' group (the doctors aren't employees of the hospital) was over $1,700. That was before any network-negotiated charges with insurance. The bill had a line item showing: "Surgical Services: $730."

After all was said-and-done, my out-of-pocket cost was $603.

This is just a theory, but, had I NOT been insured and paid cash, I bet it would have been cheaper.


I went to the ER a couple months ago for extreme stomach pain. Total bill for insurance was about $8600...and all they did was take my blood and give me a ton of medicine.

Thankfully, insurance covered all but the $150 copay.

The stomach pain was never actually ID'ed, but was not anything serious like appendicitis and a blockage. When it went away, I was released, and I live to tell the tale.

CatLady18
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2017
Total Posts : 86
   Posted 3/21/2018 12:11 AM (GMT -6)   
"'For example, the average salary for a general practice physician in the other countries was between $86,607 and $154,126. In the US, the average salary was $218,173."


Apparently, I chose the wrong profession sad

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2041
   Posted 3/21/2018 1:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Astroman said: "I will add PhD's of other sciences can sometimes be the same way (I have worked with them), thats why they invented Velcro "laced" shoes and pocket protectors."

Oh, my gosh!!! I can totally relate. I worked with engineers and various kinds of scientists for years. I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. They could design buildings but couldn't load paper in a copy machine or maneuver their way through an online training session without help.

I think the analytical, investigative types who will risk everything to get to the truth should be the ones in charge of all areas of healthcare, and the science types should be assigned tasks that they are competent in without crossing over into areas where they can screw everything up. Truth and justice should prevail at all costs and the goal should always be getting the sick person well using effective treatments that the patient is agreeable to. There should be no separation between conventional and alternative medicine. All viable forms of treatment should be equally available without discrimination or coercion in either direction.

Patients should never feel pressured or obligated to choose any type of treatment they are uncomfortable with, and thorough education and ongoing support should be provided to all patients receiving any form of treatment. If the providers can't answer patients' questions and adequately address concerns about treatments, then they're not educated or competent enough to be providing that treatment.

That was a mouthful!! I'll step off my soapbox now.😊

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1903
   Posted 3/21/2018 4:47 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
WalkingbyFaith - you said it perfect.

My functional MD told me this, and is why he went into functional medicine- he can think on his feet and is not surrounded by idiots.



I love how more people are getting into this field. More and more "legit" medical doctors are saying, "I want to practice medicine and HEALING, the right way. The current model doesn't allow me too. I'm going to leave that paradigm and go into actually helping people."

I bet more doctors would prefer to do that but either are trapped in the current system or like the safety (financially, career-wise) of the current system.
Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41
Ehrlichia (Igenex)
Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

ABX Treatment: 03/2016-04/2016; 7/2017-9/2017
Buhner Protocol for Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella and Mycoplasma (treating everything to be on the safe side): May 2016 - Dec. 2016; 8/2017 - Present

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 3/21/2018 5:11 PM (GMT -6)   
dacarte3 said...
astroman said...
WalkingbyFaith - you said it perfect.

My functional MD told me this, and is why he went into functional medicine- he can think on his feet and is not surrounded by idiots.



I love how more people are getting into this field. More and more "legit" medical doctors are saying, "I want to practice medicine and HEALING, the right way. The current model doesn't allow me too. I'm going to leave that paradigm and go into actually helping people."

I bet more doctors would prefer to do that but either are trapped in the current system or like the safety (financially, career-wise) of the current system.


The thread I posted on vaccinations - the Dr. doing the talk - he talks about that - he has changed his way of practicing - after he was forced to get the vaccine and got sick.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 1157
   Posted 3/21/2018 5:42 PM (GMT -6)   
There's a lot I'd say on the matter, if we were all sitting around the dinner table.

But, one thing I'll mention here is that I believe most Doctors and Nurses got into healthcare to help people. I think most of them were motivated by noble intentions. While I was not a healthcare provider, I worked in Healthcare IT for 12 years and worked/talked with a LOT of Doctors (Oncologists, Radiologists, Trauma), Nurses, and MR/CT/X-Ray Technologists in that time.

Many of them are just as frustrated as patients. As previously mentioned by others, Doctors and Nurses actually DO want their patient to get better. Most don't want to simply write scripts, as people will boomerang-around again, because the actual cause of the condition was never addressed.

Also, it's important to acknowledge that the patients themselves are often the cause of the condition (knowingly or unknowingly) by making poor lifestyle choices. That's another rabbit hole on its own, with regard to education (see my previous comment on prevention) and compliance.

Finally, healthcare works have a lot of pressures on them, these days. More than many people realize. Insurance companies are part of the problem (see my previous comment on reimbursements), but there's also the ever-increasing focus on profits, consolidation in the healthcare sector, long hours, attrition, hospitals and hospital groups being run by "bean-counters," malpractice insurance, fear of litigation, maintaining licensure, etc.

Honestly, I'm not sure why people stay in the healthcare field, unless it's the desire to truly make a difference. I know plenty of people that make much more than most Doctors - and have less hassle.

Also...

Personally, I don't think the automatic response to "conventional" healthcare is to necessarily run to "Integrative" or "Functional" medicine practitioners. Like most things, there's good and bad in each camp.

After working with several "alternative" practitioners, I realized they don't have things all figured-out, either. Sadly, I think many physicians run to the "alternative" camp, because they can offer trendy, boutique services; pick-and-choose their clientele; offer expensive supplements and even more expensive testing (with high profit margins); and operate on a cash-only basis and not have to deal with insurance companies. By not having to deal with insurance companies, not only does that reduce their headaches and frustrations, but they also don't have to maintain extra staff to deal with all that paperwork.

Thus, we end-up with people like Mark Hyman, Josh Axe, Joe Mercola, and many others that show-up on the various "Summits." With lines of custom supplements, books, apps, consulting, etc., these folks are riding the trendy Functional Medicine wave and making a tsunami of cash.

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 3/21/2018 5:01:17 PM (GMT-6)


astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5099
   Posted 3/21/2018 9:15 PM (GMT -6)   
There are two sides to every story. And people tend to talk more about negative experiences than positive. Yes, Insurance, hospital profits, big pharma, lawsuits have wrecked healthcare. Its a shame.

And, unfortunately Functional medicine has been "fadified" by some. Opposite being conventional; there is no in between.

There are good Drs in the healthcare "trap". That said, there is no excuse for conventional Drs personally telling me that:

1)Chronic lyme does not exist.

2)Candida overgrowth does not exist (Gastro Dr)(even conventional labs have blood testing for this LOL)

3)Glutan sensitivity does not exist

4)T3 thyroid hormone will kill me (from Endocrinologist)

I have great respect for the "trauma teams".

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/21/2018 8:18:03 PM (GMT-6)


The Dude Abides
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Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 1157
   Posted 3/21/2018 9:46 PM (GMT -6)   
"fadified" - I'm going to steal that one! Very true, too!

I agree with you, astroman.

Back in 2014, a yo-yo Rheumatologist ask if I wanted him to write me a prescription for the migrating pain in my muscles/joints.

I declined, and, instead, asked: "What about the role of diet and lifestyle?" I already knew the answer to my question, but I wanted to hear what this 30-plus-year Doctor had to say.

His response was something like: "Diet has nothing to do with any of this."

At that point, I concluded he deserved to be bludgeoned in the taint with a Garden Weasel.
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