Anyone Pulse herbs?

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Serfr
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 264
   Posted 3/29/2018 9:37 AM (GMT -6)   
Just wondering or should i do this continuously. Thank you.
Tried abx and iv abx for 2 yrs, now trying herbs; Chronic Tonic (bottled) CSA formula, JK, Houttunia, Andrographis, Cats Claw, Oil of Oregano
Sx Aug '13-
Extreme fatigue, dizziness, head pressure, 1 seizure, ringing ears, crawling sensations everywhere, throat pain, groin pain, very cold hands/feet, joint pain, sole pain, body/muscle spasms, teeth/gum pain, constipation, depression, panic attacks

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2020
   Posted 3/29/2018 10:08 AM (GMT -6)   
Buhner has said that pulsing herbs is a bad idea, especially with knotweed, and that those who do tend to relapse from doing so. If you're thinking of pulsing herbs because you think the bugs will develop resistance to the herbs, don't. According to Buhner, that is very unlikely to happen with herbs, particularly with whole herbs. There are a few that are not to be taken continually. I know some form of artemesia or artemisinin, but you'll have to check which one. I haven't used that one. Berberines shouldn't be taken long term. There are a few others but not the main herbs in the protocols. Some have contraindications. Just check for those.

However, if you are thinking of pulsing herbs in order to better tolerate the herxes, I have experimented with that. What I have done is kept my regular 3x day doses at a manageable level and then taken extra drops (usually under the tongue) one or more times a day in between the regular doses. I've had some benefits from that. You could experiment with different herbs that way to figure out which one is inducing certain herx symptoms or which one best alleviates certain symptoms, etc.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33872
   Posted 3/29/2018 10:54 AM (GMT -6)   
I wouldn't pulse...but you might want to lower doses if you're herxing.


Artemisia (whole herb) can be taken daily. But Artemisinin can't.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 382
   Posted 3/29/2018 11:57 AM (GMT -6)   
I agree with WalkingbyFaith. As far as I remember only Isatis and Artemisinin need to be pulsed if I remember correctly - I would double check everything you're taking in Buhner and other sources to be sure.

I've been wondering about Rhodiola as I suspect I might need to take a break from it personally and some people seem to think it's wise but Buhner gives no indication of that and I'm assuming that for the purpose it's used for in the protocols it is good continuously.

I have, however, been doing something similar to what WalkingByFaith describes. I keep a steady constant dose but I am experimenting with higher doses of Cryptolepsis and Houttynia for short periods. I'm also testing inching up Knotweed as this one causes me a lot of nausea. This seems to be working for me for now. I haven't seen too many people talk about doing this though. I am also swapping andrographis in and out of my protocol, not for any particular reason other than I'm still not sure that it's useful to me or excess - that probably counts as pulsing lol.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33872
   Posted 3/29/2018 12:16 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet - I hadn't heard that Isatis should be pulsed. In my Bart book - its not mentioned to pulse it.

The reason Artemisinin is pulsed - it's not whole herb..it's the isolated active constituent of the Artemisia herb.
and taking daily can render it ineffective.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 382
   Posted 3/29/2018 12:49 PM (GMT -6)   
I was wondering about his intention on this one (Isatis) as I think you're right there's no mention in the Bartonella book but then oddly he also describes the protocol as a 30 day protocol if I remember correctly.

It's mentioned in the Herbal Antivirals book pg 196 "caution should be exercised in long-term use. Normally you would not take isatis for longer than 3 weeks. This should be sufficient to deal with anything you have, especially if you have combined the herb with other antivirals" "high doses or long-term use may negatively affect the kidneys"

I tend to take it for no more than 2 weeks at a time and then take a break on this one. It's definitely very strong and beneficial for me as I notice it each time I start again but I'm being extremely cautious with continuous use of Isatis right now.

Maybe someone has more information to share on what Buhner's intention was for this herb.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Notime4lyme
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 385
   Posted 3/29/2018 1:09 PM (GMT -6)   
I never heard about beberines not supposed to be taken long term... I was on coptis a while ago (the main reason for taking coptis is that it has beberine in it) for a month or two, and I stopped it because it didn't have much of an effect at all. Does anyone know what coptis is supposed to treat? I still have some left over.

I've never taken isatis or rhodiola. Do they work very well for bartonella?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33872
   Posted 3/29/2018 1:11 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet said...
I was wondering about his intention on this one (Isatis) as I think you're right there's no mention in the Bartonella book but then oddly he also describes the protocol as a 30 day protocol if I remember correctly.

It's mentioned in the Herbal Antivirals book pg 196 "caution should be exercised in long-term use. Normally you would not take isatis for longer than 3 weeks. This should be sufficient to deal with anything you have, especially if you have combined the herb with other antivirals" "high doses or long-term use may negatively affect the kidneys"

I tend to take it for no more than 2 weeks at a time and then take a break on this one. It's definitely very strong and beneficial for me as I notice it each time I start again but I'm being extremely cautious with continuous use of Isatis right now.

Maybe someone has more information to share on what Buhner's intention was for this herb.


I wouldn't call that pulsing. "you would not take satis for longer than 3 weeks" Pulsing is starting/stopping/starting/stopping.

eg. taking something M/W/F only or 4 days on, 10 off...repeat..
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 382
   Posted 3/29/2018 1:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Starting and stopping and starting again is exactly what I'm doing with the Isatis - but yes, the motive is to rest rather than hit with a pulse so I guess that was misleading so no Isatis is not meant to be pulsed. The recommendation of how long on/off is actually in the Mycoplasma chapter - pg 169 - 3 weeks on, 1 week off. I sometimes take 2 weeks or longer off now that I've been using it for a few months.

I was mistaken btw that the 30 days mention was for his Babesia protocol not Bartonella so it's strange he doesn't repeat this information in the Bart chapter.

Notime4lyme - the Rhodiola (along with Ashwagandha) is supposed to help raise CD4 cell counts for Bartonella. It was one of the first adaptogens I added to my treatment and I've never noticed that it was beneficial for the bart specifically but I did like its adaptogenic effects smile it's one of the few herbs I really noticed.

I usually notice an improvement after Isatis but it's still hard to say consistently, it's one of the few herbs that I seem to feel.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33872
   Posted 3/29/2018 1:38 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet said...
Starting and stopping and starting again is exactly what I'm doing with the Isatis - but yes, the motive is to rest rather than hit with a pulse so I guess that was misleading so no Isatis is not meant to be pulsed. The recommendation of how long on/off is actually in the Mycoplasma chapter - pg 169 - 3 weeks on, 1 week off. I sometimes take 2 weeks or longer off now that I've been using it for a few months.



hmmm...well I'd say 3 weeks on with one week off and repeat would be pulsed.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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