Repeated tendon issues

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sandyfeet
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/4/2018 7:51 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm getting frustrated with repeated tendon injuries. Every time a get a new injury I start fishing through the archives and then I feel overwhelmed with options, theories and ideas and brain fog makes it hard to form a concrete plan for how to move forward and I feel more stuck than ever.

My joints feel 'brittle' for lack of a better description and the slightest thing can set them off at times. I've taken to taping susceptible joints as soon as I get a hint that they might give me trouble but sometimes I get caught unawares which happened last night with a fresh injury to my right ankle.

For the longest time I assumed that this was a lyme symptom but I'm starting to suspect it's bartonella and I'm not clear whether it's the tendon or bursa that is the root cause or a bit of both depending on the joint.

I'm taking MSM, collagen, fish oil, COQ10 and C. I've tried Hyaluronic Acid on and off without any noticeable difference. I've been focusing on exercises to strengthen the supporting muscles around the affected joints which seems to help some but I don't think they were overly weak to start with. I'm wondering if I need to increase my protein intake as it's on the lower end. Anyone notice whether macros matter when it comes to diet and joints?

Thoughts? Does this sort of thing tend to be lyme or bart? Does it even matter which is the cause?

Missouri
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 336
   Posted 4/4/2018 8:04 AM (GMT -6)   
I am also struggling with tendon issues. Mostly in my knees. I am wondering if it's caused by infection, or medications, or too much exercise.

I hope we see some good responses from those more knowledagble

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1679
   Posted 4/4/2018 8:13 AM (GMT -6)   
Bartonella causes tendon issues.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4879
   Posted 4/4/2018 8:59 AM (GMT -6)   
Through the years I have tried a lot for soft tissue support.

In addition to killing the critter load:

Try cissus capsules @ 600-1000mg x 4-6 a day, its all over bodybuilding forums as the best soft tissue support there is, above collegian and glucoseamine (does nothing).

Deep massage / self trigger point pressure with golf ball/other tools followed by topical DMSO also helps.

Protien, I found did nothing for tendons.

Lyme also causes tendon issues and re-surfaces past injuries. It would be my guess, many of these infections do.

Post Edited (astroman) : 4/4/2018 9:02:00 AM (GMT-6)


acarined
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 175
   Posted 4/4/2018 10:22 AM (GMT -6)   
Bart probably causes arthritis as well as Lyme. Interestingly, antibiotics for Lyme cause me no joint pain, but those for bart do. It took weeks for my joints to recover from the last antibiotic induced bart herx.

Bartonella Infection Associated with Rheumatoid Illnesses in Humans

What is your dose of MSM? I use up to 12 g, though I often have to lower it or stop due to insomnia.

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/4/2018 10:42 AM (GMT -6)   
Me too Missouri. smile

One of the things that gets me really down is when I get it into my head that I need to do something more or new. And then I go into research mode but I end up going in circles and it all feels like such a waste of time when symptoms just seem to come and go on their own during treatment and I think maybe I should just stay the course and make the most of what little time and energy I do have to do something 'normal' lol.

Thanks Astroman - I know you've researched and tried it all so your feedback is much appreciated!

Last year I went through a period where all my muscles started to tighten up. I practice yoga regularly and I noticed I was losing a lot of mobility in various poses over a short period of time. I started doing a lot of foam rolling and trigger point work and that really helped and I'm slowly getting some of that lost flexibility back. So this is my opportunity to say thank-you for all those old posts. smile

The cissus looks good. I read a bunch of the articles on DMSO and felt nervous about it although I can't remember why - I'll go back and read them again.

Glucosamine did nothing for me either, still not sure about the MSM.

Acarined - thanks for the link! I still don't know if it helps me or not to know the root cause but something in me feels like it's useful to know which infection is responsible.

I'm taking 1 TBSP in water throughout the day so around 10 g. I didn't know that there was an insomnia link! I'm back to suffering a lot of insomnia although I've assumed that's a bart symptom returning - I'll have to check out that possibility though. Are you finding a benefit from the MSM?
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32611
   Posted 4/4/2018 11:04 AM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet - you're treating herbally right?

(not with fluoroquinolone antibiotics)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/4/2018 11:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes Girlie, herbs only. Very good point. I have a friend dealing with the effects of a course of fluoroquinolone so I know about the risks.

As far as I know I've never had fluoroquinolone but then I did notice just recently someone mention somewhere on this forum that it is often administered during surgery (which I did have some 6 years ago, a year and a half before I was infected and 4 years before the first tendon injury) so it's a possibility but I'm hoping that I haven't. Sigh.

I've never had any joint or tendon issues before I was infected but the first thing I noticed was achilles tendonitis that just didn't heal (or maybe it was the insomnia hard to say as I was slow to clue in). I put that down to a strain that I didn't take care of properly at the time.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32611
   Posted 4/4/2018 11:26 AM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet - although I've read that the fluoroquinolones can (rarely) do damage even after you've stopped taking them...I doubt if 4 years later...something would happen.

I think you can be quite confident that it's from the infections - likely bartonella.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/4/2018 11:32 AM (GMT -6)   
Phew! At least that's one bright spot in my day Girle smile
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1679
   Posted 4/4/2018 1:32 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet,

Some people have had tendon issues that occurred from taking herbs - especially cat's claw. I don't know if it's a problem with the herb itself or if it's hitting bacteria or stimulating an immune response in the tendons. I suspect worsened tendon issues may be a herx reaction to treatment for either Lyme or bartonella. Just be careful not to overdo it with the herbs or with physical activity.

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/4/2018 2:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks WBF. I'll try to keep an eye on whether issues are dose related. It's hard not to overdo the physical activity especially on good days. smile
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Missouri
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 336
   Posted 4/4/2018 3:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you all for the responses.

I do strongly suspect Bart has been a major player for me.

I totally get that 'research mode' comment sandyfeet... I worry I am going to cause further damage by exercising, but then wonder if it is worse not to exercise. Its tough to get a good exercise doing things that exclude the legs...

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/13/2018 8:47 AM (GMT -6)   
Acarined - thanks so much for the reminder that MSM can cause insomnia. I'm usually really careful checking possible side effects whenever I take something new and everything went well when I started taking MSM (which was quite some time ago) but I forgot to check things periodically and whenever increasing doses. I dropped the MSM and the worst of my insomnia (the kind where I'm awake for hours at a time) resolved and I'm back to normal poor sleep smile

I'm taking Cissus in its place - which can also cause insomnia lol. It's too early to tell on that one
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4879
   Posted 4/13/2018 9:41 AM (GMT -6)   
sandy- Are you having sleep issues, or did you read cissus can do that?

I read on some forums that Cicuss helps many sleep, as it regulates hormones.

Two weeks on it and my sleep has not changed noticably either way. I am sleeping pretty good right now.

seyshell
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2014
Total Posts : 39
   Posted 4/13/2018 10:17 AM (GMT -6)   
I too keep suffering with repeated magnified inflammation in tendons, ligaments, soft tissue!! Stretching helps somewhat but I just started Reishi supplements, japanese knotweed, and cordycepts. Lord I will try anything!! I take epston salt baths and have an infrared sauna!!

That is my biggest symptom and the rest I feel about 90% well.

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/13/2018 10:53 AM (GMT -6)   
Astro - insomnia in its many wonderful incarnations has been one of my top three symptoms since the beginning. It resolved beautifully for a while when I started treating bart and babesia but then it still seems to come and go although rarely as bad as before. It definitely improved after stopping the MSM and to be honest I never did notice any improvement from MSM anyway so that's fine. I read that for many cissus may have a nice sedative and levelling effect - that would definitely be nice. But they also list insomnia as a possible side effect so to be cautious for now I'm just taking it in the morning before I exercise. It's too early to say but for the last few days things seem to be a bit less brittle. I swam 1 Km yesterday and my joints behaved themselves which was nice.

seyshell - stretching (I do a lot of yin yoga) is wonderful and I love the foam roller - have you tried one of these? I'm really hoping that the cissus turns out to be one of the keys to healing the tendons as it is such a nuisance. I'm always extremely careful now to never twist anything - e.g. when I get out of the car I try to rotate my whole body 90 degrees and then step straight out etc., it's quite comical really but it is what it is. If you find anything that helps I'd love to hear it!
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4879
   Posted 4/13/2018 11:34 AM (GMT -6)   
sandy- MSM did nothing for me either, tried a few different brands different times.

When lyme was raging, like many here, I slept very minimal.

Cissus- I do notice a welcomed, more calmer, balanced feeling in the AM with it. Its almost been two weeks and I can say I also have less soreness in the AM now, its escpecialy noticeable the next morning after intense workouts.

"swam 1 Km yesterday" - wow, you must be a dedicated swimmer. I tried swimming laps two years ago when my shoulders were still a little messed up- not the best idea. I should try it again, as the many shoulder cuff tendons have further healed, but not 100% yet.

My core is finally pretty flexable now, I get the 90 degree car exit LOL.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32611
   Posted 4/13/2018 11:38 AM (GMT -6)   
astro - Does the breast stroke bother your shoulders?


I had some pain in my shoulders, but find swimming the breast stroke is fine.
I wouldn't attempt the crawl though.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4879
   Posted 4/13/2018 12:18 PM (GMT -6)   
The breaststroke was never my thing for making laps, never liked the dolphin "bobing" part of it. I just do basic freestyle stroke. And if its in a lake, I dont put my head fully under ha ha..(more like a modified freestyle). I'm more of a land mammal.

Two frozen shoulders really left a lot of scar tissue 25 years ago, it healed to about 30-40% for years, which does not sound like much but was enough for everyday living, and holding onto handlebars for dear life. I re-injured both 8 years ago, so I've made lots of improvement in the last year using lots of pulleys at the gym, followed by home trigger point release and now DMSO, + cissus..

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/13/2018 12:30 PM (GMT -6)   
Swimming is definitely my favourite exercise along with yin yoga - both very relaxing and meditative for me. I used to be able to swim a little over 2K in an hour back before I had lyme and young kids that needed watching and playing with at the pool. This is the first time I've managed to do more than a 1/2 K and it felt really good. I usually do breaststroke up and back crawl down. Luckily I haven't had any shoulder issues so I guess I really should count my blessings there.

With the air hunger / yawning problem I've been worried that maybe I'm developing heart issues but I can still do some reasonable moderate exercise at this point so I'm hoping it's just a babesia or bartonella or whatever thing and I should just patiently wait it out.

Yeah - I don't get my head under water either when it's in the lake or the ocean. Unless the horsefly come by. lol.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32611
   Posted 4/13/2018 12:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Why don't you guys put your head under water at the lake?

Am I missing something?

The lake I swim in is clean/clear and very fresh.

But I also don't put my head under each time when I'm doing the breast stroke.

2K? Oh boy .... that's a good distance. I'm not that good a swimmer...
I do find it to be the most gentle for my body. I don't run anymore and only occasionally bike ride.
Most days I go on my Elliptical machine and do therabands and light weights (really light)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 4/13/2018 12:54:04 PM (GMT-6)


sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/13/2018 1:41 PM (GMT -6)   
I can't speak for astro but I'm a city girl and lake water just creeps me out lol.

I find if I don't put my head in the water while doing the breast stroke it really hurts my neck.

Those therabands are fabulous - I've been quite lazy about using them the last little while but they're great for doing all sorts of joint strengthening exercises. I'd love to get to the point where I feel safe running outside - I don't because I'm worried I'll turn an ankle or something on some uneven ground and I just don't need any extra risks in my life. For now I just do some jogging in place. It seems to be just fine for my joints as I can be very careful to keep everything aligned.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32611
   Posted 4/13/2018 2:21 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet said...
I can't speak for astro but I'm a city girl and lake water just creeps me out lol.



So do you drink city water? That's funny...because I'm the opposite. I go to the city and don't want to drink the water there because of all the pollution...lol.

I do drink our tap water though.

Im not running now because I don't want to jar my spine. My spine has been hit hard with these infections..
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 4/13/2018 3:22 PM (GMT -6)   
lol - we live in the country now so I have the most delicious well water. We used to RO filter the city water. I guess we had a lot of pollution in the city as we rarely had so much as a mosquito to deal with. I'm probably much better off with country living even if it came with a case of lyme. ;-)

Sorry to hear you've got problems with your spine too Girle. How does that manifest for you? I've definitely lost some mobility in my spine as I can't do spinal twists in yoga as much as I used to. beyond that my back seems to be fairly good over all.
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