Resveratrol/ japanese knotweed confusion

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Spanish
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 4/7/2018 2:34 AM (GMT -6)   
I was doing a little research this morning on the benefits of japanese knotweed and came across a study that has left me confused.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4821490/

I know Buhners says that the herbal protocol can be used along with antibiotics but this study while not specifically targeting lyme shows that resveratrol has a serious negative effect on antibiotics bacterial killing abillity and increases the bacterias ability to develop a resistance to antibiotic treatment.

I now dont know whether to continue the treatment or not..

Anyone with more knowledge than me have any thoughts on this?

Post Edited (Spanish) : 4/7/2018 1:37:02 AM (GMT-6)


Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33798
   Posted 4/7/2018 3:08 AM (GMT -6)   
interesting - this is new to me.


Did you see that curcumin was also mentioned?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Spanish
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 4/7/2018 3:33 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes I did its all so confusing!!! Im now thinking ill stop the knotweed just incase as I have been doing well on antibiotics and resistance is the last thing I need.

Im surprised this hasnt come up before

Post Edited (Spanish) : 4/7/2018 2:36:20 AM (GMT-6)


goshawk
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Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 2293
   Posted 4/7/2018 4:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for the information...I do take JK every day for the inflammation benefits , while I'm not on ABX, be helpful to see a study how it interacts with herbals that are anti bacterial's etc.

sierraDon
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2016
Total Posts : 275
   Posted 4/7/2018 8:49 AM (GMT -6)   
wow.

i wonder if this is another case of practical experience dictates a different result, i.e. in vivo is different than in vitro.

nothing is straight forward with lyme...hate this conflicting crap

borrelioburgdorferii
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 245
   Posted 4/7/2018 1:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Yeah I get weird side effects from Resveratrol/Japanese Knotweed. Is it killing the bacteria? or what? I seemed to get this rush of dopamine/norepinephrine after taking it, similar to what Minocycline did which scared me to the edge of a 3-alarm panic attack/psych episode so I stopped taking it. I would continue to proceed with either/both if I knew how to do it properly. I'm guessing here but, ok an educated guess er hypothesis that I have involved neuro late stage lyme deep in my brain tissue and that taking Resveratrol/Japanese Knotweed and/ or Minocycline passes the blood brain barrier and agitates and/or kills borrelia and co. And the byproduct (like yeast making alcohol) from the bacteria-kill die-off organic chemical is chemically-similar to dopamine/norepinephrine antagonists or agonists. I haven't taken Resveratrol-Japanese Knotweed or Cat's Claw for awhile but I want to start again as it seemed to be as effective as Doxycycline Amoxicillin.
Tick bite/EM rash +10 years ago
Active, athletic, with past concussions.
1st known bite: tick infested area, flu, chills, fever, neuro symptoms.
Treat with ABX/herbs recently (2-5 years now).
Get symptom free with strict diet: paleo/keto/IM fasting
Have done Buhner's Protocol, Doxycycline, Amoxicillin, Supplements.
IgG via IgeneX 31-IND, 41++, 58+ (Sep-2016)
IgM via IgeneX 31+, 41-IND (Sep-2016)

Spanish
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 4/7/2018 2:08 PM (GMT -6)   
I dont doubt JK is beneficial in treating lyme when used as part of a solely herbal protocol but its apparent effect
on antibiotics effectiveness is worrying.

Id like to hear fom anyone who has healed while using JK and antibiotics together

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33798
   Posted 4/7/2018 2:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Unfortunately those who have healed generally don't stick around here.....
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Octobrsky13
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 178
   Posted 4/7/2018 2:44 PM (GMT -6)   
Interesting since Buhner not only says it’s ok to take herbals along with abx but he singles out JK as the one herbal to take, if no other, because he states that it enhances the effectiveness of the abx.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1988
   Posted 4/7/2018 5:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Octobrsky13 said...
Interesting since Buhner not only says it’s ok to take herbals along with abx but he singles out JK as the one herbal to take, if no other, because he states that it enhances the effectiveness of the abx.


I haven't read the article in question, but I agree with Octobrsky13. This is what Buhner says.

Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 882
   Posted 4/7/2018 10:30 PM (GMT -6)   
some ABX create reactive oxygen species (ROS) as a way of killing microbes, the body also produces its own ROS's to kill pathogens

so yes, ANTI oxidants are likely to interfere with ROS since ROS relies on oxidizing factors to work

but not all ABX do this. Doxy works by stopping the growth of bacteria by binding to specific proteins so i doubt anti oxidznts like resveratrol will inhibit its actions.

So it would depend on the specific ABX used

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1988
   Posted 4/7/2018 10:47 PM (GMT -6)   
Okay, I took a look at the article. I am not getting all excited over this for a number of reasons.

1) it's not research on humans in actual clinical situations
2) they are referring to isolated resveratrol, which Buhner does not recommend. He recommends Japanese knotweed, whole herb
3) they are making the same observations about multiple antioxidants that we commonly take - glutathione, Vit C, curcumin, and food with antioxidants

"glutathione, and vitamin C reduce the lethal activity of fluoroquinolones by orders of magnitude"

"Curcumin, which is a common food ingredient in Southeast Asia and is often used medicinally, reduces the lethal activity of ciprofloxacin with cultured bacteria, in macrophage-like cells infected with bacteria, and in a mouse infection model."

"Thus, a cautionary note has been raised concerning antibiotic therapy and consumption of foods having antioxidant activity."

This reminds me of the controversial medical advice that some doctors were following at one time about telling patients not to supplement minerals, even if they were deficient, because it would "feed" the bacteria. Basically, keeping patients in a state of depletion.

Common sense has to be used when evaluating these kinds of studies. Are you going to stop taking glutathione, Vit C, curcumin, and refuse to eat any foods high in antioxidants for fear that the abx won't work?

Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 882
   Posted 4/7/2018 10:53 PM (GMT -6)   
doing some more reading into this, it seems other studies directly conflict the idea that anti oxidants would interfere with ABX activity

Somebody said...


Antibiotic Mechanisms Revisited

Several recent studies have suggested that bactericidal antibiotics kill cells by a common mechanism involving reactive oxygen species (ROS). Two groups tested this hypothesis using diverse experiments, with both finding that quinolone, lactam, and aminoglycoside antibiotics had similar efficacy for killing in the presence or absence of oxygen (or nitrate). Liu et al. (p. 1210) saw no increase in hydrogen peroxide production in antibiotic-exposed cells and found no association between antibiotic exposure and the expected symptoms of oxidative damage, such as the breakdown of iron-sulfur clusters in enzymes or of hydroxyl radical injuries to DNA.

Similarly, Keren et al. (p. 1213) found no correlation between the production of ROS, inferred from hydroxyphenyl fluorescein dye measurements, and bacterial survival, nor was there any significant protective effect engendered by thiourea. The results do not support a common mode of action for bactericidal antibiotics mediated by ROS.

Spanish
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 146
   Posted 4/10/2018 12:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Lapis_29 said...
doing some more reading into this, it seems other studies directly conflict the idea that anti oxidants would interfere with ABX activity

Somebody said...


Antibiotic Mechanisms Revisited

Several recent studies have suggested that bactericidal antibiotics kill cells by a common mechanism involving reactive oxygen species (ROS). Two groups tested this hypothesis using diverse experiments, with both finding that quinolone, lactam, and aminoglycoside antibiotics had similar efficacy for killing in the presence or absence of oxygen (or nitrate). Liu et al. (p. 1210) saw no increase in hydrogen peroxide production in antibiotic-exposed cells and found no association between antibiotic exposure and the expected symptoms of oxidative damage, such as the breakdown of iron-sulfur clusters in enzymes or of hydroxyl radical injuries to DNA.

Similarly, Keren et al. (p. 1213) found no correlation between the production of ROS, inferred from hydroxyphenyl fluorescein dye measurements, and bacterial survival, nor was there any significant protective effect engendered by thiourea. The results do not support a common mode of action for bactericidal antibiotics mediated by ROS.



Thanks for the reply, that makes me feel better. Itsgard to know what to believe, nothing seems easy with this disease

Raleighgirlie
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 140
   Posted 4/10/2018 7:55 PM (GMT -6)   
So I actually just bought some Reservatrol/Japanese Knotweed (Gaia Herbs brand) and wanted to start taking it to see if it helps with inflammation/boost immune system but am a little scared to now as apparently you can herx from it. Will I herx taking it if I am not taking any antibiotics or treatment? I am only really taking turmeric and MSM/vitamin C right now along with the modified citrus pectin at night.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33798
   Posted 4/10/2018 8:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Raleighgirlie said...
So I actually just bought some Reservatrol/Japanese Knotweed (Gaia Herbs brand) and wanted to start taking it to see if it helps with inflammation/boost immune system but am a little scared to now as apparently you can herx from it. Will I herx taking it if I am not taking any antibiotics or treatment? I am only really taking turmeric and MSM/vitamin C right now along with the modified citrus pectin at night.


Yes you can herx on JK.
It has antibacterial properties.
And also - immune boosting can also result in a herx.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1988
   Posted 4/11/2018 9:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Raleighgirlie said...
So I actually just bought some Reservatrol/Japanese Knotweed (Gaia Herbs brand) and wanted to start taking it to see if it helps with inflammation/boost immune system but am a little scared to now as apparently you can herx from it. Will I herx taking it if I am not taking any antibiotics or treatment? I am only really taking turmeric and MSM/vitamin C right now along with the modified citrus pectin at night.


Just start slowly with a low dose. Is it a capsule? Just open the capsule and take a small amount mixed in some liquid.

I had to start slow, but it's defintely not the most herx provoking of the herbs. Not everyone is sensitive to it.
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