Just got positive Igenix testing for Bartonella

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Solaris719
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Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/7/2018 4:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Just received my Igenix results from my LLMD office, where I had Lyme (Western Blot) and Babesia Duncani (IFA) tests run for the 2nd time (first was back in December), and Bartonella testing for the first time. Much to my surprise, my Bartonella has come back positive. I have never really had any of the hallmark symptoms of it (no rashes, pain in soles of my feet, rage, or pain in general except head/neck muscle tightness and pressure). As I've probably mentioned in many postings and several threads on here, my biggest symptoms have been psych, with Anxiety being the predominant one, followed by some irritability, moodiness, brief instances of depression, and fatigue.

My current abx med regiment is as follows:

Minocycline 100mg 2x/day (have been on it for 1 week after 5 months on Doxy, increasing the mino to 100mg 3x/day starting today to see how well I tolerate it)
Azithromyicin 500mg 1x/day Mon-Thurs
Coartem 2x/day Fri-Sun

I called my LLMD as soon as I received the tests to ask if I should be prescribed Rifampin but he said that the Mino and Zith would treat the Bart for now (I've been on a Tetracycline and Macrolide since October now) and to continue finishing the Babesia treatment, which I'm currently in the middle of my 3rd month of now. I did 1 month of mepron, 2 week break, and now am entering week 6 of Coartem. Prior to babs protocol I was taking Doxy, Zith, and Tindamax and felt amazing. I took Nystatin for 2 months for oral thrush and was recently prescribed Diflucan but have not taken it yet as it interacts directly with Coartem (plus my bloodwork hasn't shown much elevated levels of candida, awaiting my most recent test results).


Are there any supplements or things that I could add that are Bart specific while on this regiment? My current supplements are: Magnesium 200mg 2x/day, 5-HTP, L-Theanine, Circumin 500mg 2x/day, NAC 900mg 2x/day, Probiotic daily, B-complex multivitamin daily, and Glutathione as needed. I detox via daily dry skin brushing, the aforementioned NAC/Glutathione, and Alka Seltzer Gold 1x/day as needed. I am working on trying to resume exercising to generate a sweat as well.

Any advice is much appreciated. I see my LLMD again in 5 weeks to reassess. I have gotten a lot better and want to finish these nasty buggers off by summertime!

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2023
   Posted 4/7/2018 5:13 PM (GMT -6)   
If you want to take something for bartonella, the most important herbs as far as I can tell are Japanese knotweed and sida acuta (which will also treat babesia) and houttuynia. I personally benefited more from the IHA Formula (isatis/houttuynia/alchnornea) than from houttuynia alone.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/7/2018 5:28 PM (GMT -6)   
Wow - a positive for Bart!! I always think it's good news when we get a positive..as it confirms the treatment that we may have been questioning is needed.
You know now that you are fighting bart.



i think you LLMD's plan to continue with the Babesia treatment first and then do the Bart treatment is good.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2023
   Posted 4/7/2018 5:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Wow - a positive for Bart!! I always think it's good news when we get a positive..as it confirms the treatment that we may have been questioning is needed.
You know now that you are fighting bart.



i think you LLMD's plan to continue with the Babesia treatment first and then do the Bart treatment is good.


Yeah. I was thinking that, too. That's really great you got a positive. I have most of the Bart symptoms and did not get a positive on Labcorp or DNA Connexions tests. I only tested for Lyme with Igenix.

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/7/2018 6:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for the quick responses! Does Japanese Knotweed interact or sida acuta interact with any of the antibiotics?

It’s so weird that I didn’t really have any of the classic symptoms of babs or Bart but Igenix picked it up. The quest has always picked up the Lyme via western blot.

Does anyone know of the typical treatment length for Bart? I know Babs is 4-5 months minimum and that ideally for any diagnosis you want at least 2 months of no symptoms before stopping, just looking for any ballpark ideas. Technically I’ve been hitting the Bart without knowing it for 6 months now (though maybe progress was hindered by not knowing about/treating babs until 2 months ago). It seems that most think addressing babs first is the key to unlocking the ability to eradicate the other co infections.


On the positive side, My Igenix for Babesia Duncani tested negative this 2nd time around (was positive before) and my Lyme igM tested negative as well (bands 23-25, 31, 39 all indeterminate, positive 41; prior test i was positive 18, 23-25, 39, 41). I know this doesn’t mean I’m cured but it does suggest progress at the very least!
Sx began Aug 2017.
Dx with Lyme 10/13/17. Rx with Doxy/Zith/Tindamax x 2-3 months (80% improvement)
Dx with Babesia Duncani 1/2018. Rx with Mepron/Zith/Doxy x 1 month
2 week break due to worst herx/experience of my life
Coartem/Zith/Doxy 2/2018-3/2018 (60% improvement)
Coartem/Zith/Mino beginning 3/30/18
Dx with Bartonella 4/7/18

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/7/2018 6:51 PM (GMT -6)   
There really isn't a typical treatment length for bart.

It can take many months...unfortunately. I would say at least 4-6 months for Bart.
(Some people it takes a year or longer. The bart guru treats many people for a few years.)

Hopefully you won't take that long...and see improvements sooner than later.

I'm not sure if it even means progress - the negatives on the Igenex.
I would just focus on your symptoms for gauging progress.


Good luck!
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2023
   Posted 4/7/2018 11:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said, "I would just focus on your symptoms for gauging progress."

That sounds like good advice. Sounds like you're definitely going in the right direction and doing okay with the abx. That's certainly a good sign. Hope things continue to improve as you get further into treatment and that you don't experience too much discomfort from the treatment.

Aerose91
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 568
   Posted 4/8/2018 10:09 AM (GMT -6)   
Bart treatment is 6-18 months but if you've already been taking azith and minocycline, I'd say you would be on the low end

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/8/2018 10:41 AM (GMT -6)   
Aerose91 said...
Bart treatment is 6-18 months but if you've already been taking azith and minocycline, I'd say you would be on the low end



It was Doxy and Zith until last week, switched to Mino 9 days ago which I’ve read is more effective for Bart than Doxy. Hoping that I am on that low end, I only had symptoms for 2-3 months or less (as far as I can tell) before beginning abx treatment.

I tried Mino 100mg 3x yesterday for the first time, not sure if I’m going to continue trying that or maintaining the 2x since most seem to think 2x is an effective dose and one that I’ve tolerated very well.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/8/2018 11:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Aerose91 said...
Bart treatment is 6-18 months but if you've already been taking azith and minocycline, I'd say you would be on the low end


You really can’t say how long it will take. I’m emailing with someone who is on year 3 now of Bart treatment with Dr M. Taking Azithromycin and mino prior isn’t an indicator it will be a shorter treatment.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Notime4lyme
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 385
   Posted 4/8/2018 3:05 PM (GMT -6)   
You could add boneset or boneset tea.

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/9/2018 3:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Aerose91 said...
Bart treatment is 6-18 months but if you've already been taking azith and minocycline, I'd say you would be on the low end


You really can’t say how long it will take. I’m emailing with someone who is on year 3 now of Bart treatment with Dr M. Taking Azithromycin and mino prior isn’t an indicator it will be a shorter treatment.


3 years? Holy cow. I mean, to me that seems a bit unreasonable to treat that long unless there were complications or other co-morbidities involved. I’m on month 7 of treatment, I can’t imagine 36 shocked

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/9/2018 4:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Solaris719 said...
Girlie said...
Aerose91 said...
Bart treatment is 6-18 months but if you've already been taking azith and minocycline, I'd say you would be on the low end


You really can’t say how long it will take. I’m emailing with someone who is on year 3 now of Bart treatment with Dr M. Taking Azithromycin and mino prior isn’t an indicator it will be a shorter treatment.


3 years? Holy cow. I mean, to me that seems a bit unreasonable to treat that long unless there were complications or other co-morbidities involved. I’m on month 7 of treatment, I can’t imagine 36 shocked


Bart can be stubborn.

Many people are treating for 2 years or longer...unfortunately.

It's not unreasonable if you still have symptoms. What choice do you have. just stop and try to live with symptoms that may or may not be disabling?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/10/2018 7:36 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Solaris719 said...
Girlie said...
Aerose91 said...
Bart treatment is 6-18 months but if you've already been taking azith and minocycline, I'd say you would be on the low end


You really can’t say how long it will take. I’m emailing with someone who is on year 3 now of Bart treatment with Dr M. Taking Azithromycin and mino prior isn’t an indicator it will be a shorter treatment.


3 years? Holy cow. I mean, to me that seems a bit unreasonable to treat that long unless there were complications or other co-morbidities involved. I’m on month 7 of treatment, I can’t imagine 36 shocked


Bart can be stubborn.

Many people are treating for 2 years or longer...unfortunately.

It's not unreasonable if you still have symptoms. What choice do you have. just stop and try to live with symptoms that may or may not be disabling?


Right, you don't have any other choice. I think it just highlights how much more money and research is needed to come up with better treatments.

Since I'm fairly new to Bart, is there a particular physiological reason why it is so stubborn? I mean with we know with Lyme it is very motile, the spirochetes can penetrate into tissues and hide out, and can change forms and evade immune system detection in the presence of abx quite rapidly. Babs lives in RBC's which have a life cycle of 90-120 days... so what's Bart got up its sleeve?

NicHostetler
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Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 647
   Posted 4/10/2018 10:22 AM (GMT -6)   
Solaris,

Just wanted to let you know that I just got a positive bartonella test a few weeks ago and just started treatment with Rifampin and Zithromax. (After treating lyme for a year and babesia for 3 months).

It's nice to know someone is in the same boat as I am. Keep us updated on your progress, I like to compare. After a few days of the combo I have some numbness (in my stomach) some rib pain, foot pain and lots of brain fog.

I do think that some of the reason some peoples treatment is so long is because they could be dealing with something else. I know that bartonella can be stubborn but we need to stay positive and not everyone has to treat for years.

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/10/2018 6:08 PM (GMT -6)   
NicHostetler said...
Solaris,

Just wanted to let you know that I just got a positive bartonella test a few weeks ago and just started treatment with Rifampin and Zithromax. (After treating lyme for a year and babesia for 3 months).

It's nice to know someone is in the same boat as I am. Keep us updated on your progress, I like to compare. After a few days of the combo I have some numbness (in my stomach) some rib pain, foot pain and lots of brain fog.

I do think that some of the reason some peoples treatment is so long is because they could be dealing with something else. I know that bartonella can be stubborn but we need to stay positive and not everyone has to treat for years.


Hi Nic,

Yes it does seem like we are in the same boat! Those symptoms you are having after starting treatment for Bart.. did you have those beforehand or are they new? I suspect I’ll be trying rifampin in about 2 months after I finish 4 months of babs treatment. Are you detoxing well? The NAC and Glutathione and Milk Thistle and dry skin brushing work wonders for me (plus the Alka seltzer gold). How are your Lyme/babs symptoms (if you can distinguish between them)?

NicHostetler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 647
   Posted 4/11/2018 7:20 AM (GMT -6)   
Solaris719 said...
NicHostetler said...
Solaris,

Just wanted to let you know that I just got a positive bartonella test a few weeks ago and just started treatment with Rifampin and Zithromax. (After treating lyme for a year and babesia for 3 months).

It's nice to know someone is in the same boat as I am. Keep us updated on your progress, I like to compare. After a few days of the combo I have some numbness (in my stomach) some rib pain, foot pain and lots of brain fog.

I do think that some of the reason some peoples treatment is so long is because they could be dealing with something else. I know that bartonella can be stubborn but we need to stay positive and not everyone has to treat for years.


Hi Nic,

Yes it does seem like we are in the same boat! Those symptoms you are having after starting treatment for Bart.. did you have those beforehand or are they new? I suspect I’ll be trying rifampin in about 2 months after I finish 4 months of babs treatment. Are you detoxing well? The NAC and Glutathione and Milk Thistle and dry skin brushing work wonders for me (plus the Alka seltzer gold). How are your Lyme/babs symptoms (if you can distinguish between them)?


The numbness in my stomach is new with Rifampin and so is the rib pain. Everything else (brain fog, dizzyness, anxiety, weakness, fatigue, headaches, etc.) has been going on for years.

I detox the best I can but it doesn't seem to help me much. I do Alka seltzer gold, NAC and milk thistle and lemon water.

I can't distinguish between bartonella and babesia unless it's the obvious ones like pain in the feet (bart.) The dizzyness, fatigue, headaches, anxiety, sweats - that can either be babesia and bartonella. I assume bart in my case because I tested positive for it and 3.5 months of babesia treatment did nothing for me. No improvement at all.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/11/2018 12:20 PM (GMT -6)   
Your rib pain is most likely bart.

I had rib pain...and it has gone with the bart treatment...however it's come back now and then...since I stopped bart treatment and have been focussing on babesia.

Don't rule out babesia - as it can often take longer than 3 1/2 months.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2023
   Posted 4/11/2018 2:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Solaris,

I just saw your questions asking what is it that makes bart so stubborn. I just came across a mention of this in Rikky's Alinia post that bart seems to have some parasitic tendencies. It also may have some fungal tendencies as well due to its implications with Morgellons.

I mentioned to my Lyme doctor that bart was the hardest to treat. She said no babesia was. I don't agree with her. I think she believes that because some Lyme docs think babesia needs to be treated first and can hinder clearance of the others. However, that doesn't mean it's HARDER to treat IMO.

Bart is by far seems to be the big one for me. I definitely agree that bart can be stubborn, although I don't really know why. Perhaps it infects more territory - skin, entire vascular system, CNS.

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/11/2018 5:10 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
Solaris,

I just saw your questions asking what is it that makes bart so stubborn. I just came across a mention of this in Rikky's Alinia post that bart seems to have some parasitic tendencies. It also may have some fungal tendencies as well due to its implications with Morgellons.

I mentioned to my Lyme doctor that bart was the hardest to treat. She said no babesia was. I don't agree with her. I think she believes that because some Lyme docs think babesia needs to be treated first and can hinder clearance of the others. However, that doesn't mean it's HARDER to treat IMO.

Bart is by far seems to be the big one for me. I definitely agree that bart can be stubborn, although I don't really know why. Perhaps it infects more territory - skin, entire vascular system, CNS.


Thanks for the info. I have to do more research into bart since I never really considered it as a potential diagnosis based on my symptoms and presentation. Is it possible to have false positives with Igenix testing? When I look through the descriptions of bart.. the only symptom that seems to be bart specific for me is dry eyes, and that only appeared within the last month as the babesia began to be tamed. The psych stuff all overlaps with Lyme, Babs etc.

Do people herx with Bart treatment like they do with lyme? I mean it sounds like it based on how some of you all describe the sx that appear after starting rifampin, but figured I'd ask.

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 2023
   Posted 4/11/2018 8:07 PM (GMT -6)   
My impression is that bartonella herxes can be really nasty. Strange since the medical experts say bartonella has low potential for herxing since it doesn't shed much endotoxins. If that is in fact true, then either bartonella creates herxing by other means or herxing is not due to endotoxins after all.

There seriously needs to be a lot more quality research on Lyme and especially coinfections. Research needs to be on matters that affect us and our quality of life, not just whatever their academic or financial interests are.

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/15/2018 12:12 PM (GMT -6)   
So, I tried the 3x/day Mino thurs and Fri, Sat I woke up with a stiff neck and by dinner time it was really severe joint/bone pain around my c6/c7 vertebrae, also have developed a headache, had some night sweats and chills, and as I type this have a lot of neck pain/stiff neck, headache, fatigue, and a low grade fever (99.7). Does this sound like a Bart herx?

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/15/2018 12:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Solaris719 said...
So, I tried the 3x/day Mino thurs and Fri, Sat I woke up with a stiff neck and by dinner time it was really severe joint/bone pain around my c6/c7 vertebrae, also have developed a headache, had some night sweats and chills, and as I type this have a lot of neck pain/stiff neck, headache, fatigue, and a low grade fever (99.7). Does this sound like a Bart herx?


You’re taking mino 3x per day? Is that the only abx you’re taking for Bart?
You could be experiencing a Lyme herx too

I have had random bone pain - bottom of neck/top of shoulder area - left side only.
Also my right big toe - intermittent bone pain - sudden sharp/deep pain. Goes away quickly though.

Also have stiff neck off and on.

I think it’s Bart
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Solaris719
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 171
   Posted 4/15/2018 1:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Solaris719 said...
So, I tried the 3x/day Mino thurs and Fri, Sat I woke up with a stiff neck and by dinner time it was really severe joint/bone pain around my c6/c7 vertebrae, also have developed a headache, had some night sweats and chills, and as I type this have a lot of neck pain/stiff neck, headache, fatigue, and a low grade fever (99.7). Does this sound like a Bart herx?


You’re taking mino 3x per day? Is that the only abx you’re taking for Bart?
You could be experiencing a Lyme herx too

I have had random bone pain - bottom of neck/top of shoulder area - left side only.
Also my right big toe - intermittent bone pain - sudden sharp/deep pain. Goes away quickly though.

Also have stiff neck off and on.

I think it’s Bart


Mino (but back to 2x/day), Zith (mon-thurs) would both hit Bart, plus Coartem (fri-sun) for the babs. The neck pain is the first sx i ever had before finding out I had Lyme so I’m thinking maybe this is a herx since it’s recreating it. Just don’t want it to be meningitis or anything.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33876
   Posted 4/15/2018 2:08 PM (GMT -6)   
If you don’t get good results with mino and Zithromax for Bart - discuss with your doc - Rifampin.

Chronic Bart is usually treated with Rifampin or Rifabutin.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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