Please Help! Some Buhner and supplement questions..

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Angel07
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 36
   Posted 4/24/2018 10:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Everyone, I am putting together a list of things I need to purchase because I am going to try the Buhner protocol. Upon doing this I came across some important questions I have that I'm really hoping some of you guys could help me with as I would be extremely grateful.. smile smile smile

1) EGCG brand that meets all the requirements recommended by Buhner.

2) Hyaluronic acid in the book he says 1tbl daily but doesn't specify powder or liquid or any recommended source for it. So I was wondering if anyone knows the answer to this if there is one.. Or if the is a good one someone knows of that they could recommend?

3)Vitamin B complex this one is a bit more complicated because I have the MTHFR Gene Mutation. So I need one that caters to that but at the same time one that hopefully wont cause anxiety because I know a lot of vitamin b supplements can tend to do that and I have had issues with that in the past before I knew what was wrong with me.

4) I have been really wanting to try the chronic fatigue formula recommended in the Buhner book. Because I have SEVERE chronic fatigue. One the ingredients is Astragalus. I know that is contradicted in chronic lyme which I definitely have as I have been sick a very long time. I also know that some people respond very well to it and others do not. I have heard Buhner say that sometimes its ok to take a product that has that in there if it doesn't have very high levels in it. That being said he doesn't say anything in regards to that about not taking it if you have chronic lyme like he normally would if he feels a certain way about it.. Just that it is very specific for reversing chronic fatigue especially if it's long term.. So I was wondering if anyone knows the answer to that specifically? Or what your thoughts are on that..

5) Spirulina I was wondering if anyone has any good brand recommendations for that preferably sold by the pound? I also worry more about this one containing heavy metals.. I thought about Starwest Botanicals as they are supposedly tested for all theses things.. They seem to have good reviews on the web for that except on Amazon ppls main concern seems to be it containing heavy metals and it being from China.. So I was wondering if anyone has specifically has any personal experience with this brand and if it is reputable and good quality? Or what your thoughts are.. Or if anyone has purchased anything from Pacific Botanicals? It is listed as a source in Buhners book as being one of the best but I haven't heard anyone talk about them..

6) Andrographis I definitely want to try it but this is one that I'm most scared to try.. Is anyone currently taking this or have taken it in the past? I'm curious to know some ppls experience with this.. Buhner recommends Natures way or planetary formulas.. So I guess my question with that is if anyone has any experience with one being better then the other? Or if someone knows if one seems to produce a reaction more so then the other..

7) Japanese knotweed I know that Buhner recommends plum flower brand but upon dpoing my own research as i do with everything I have heard quite a few ppl having problems with it not being the same quality and multiple ppl even questioning if its even Japanese knotweed that they received as it has a very distinct taste.. I also noticed out of nowhere a few weeks ago First Chinese herbs took it off their website.. So I asked them about it and they said that they are just out of it but usually when they are out of something from what ive seen they just say out of stock on the product.. So I just found that a little odd.. Amazon dose have it in stock though.. So I thought about trying Nuherbs from there instead.. What do you guys think? Has anyone tried Nuherbs Japanese Knotweed before to know if it is good quality or not?

8) Eleuthero i am confused about this because on the website it specifically states to use the herb pharm one because it is much stronger at the 2:1 formulation.. But in the book he says to use the 1:5 formulation not the 1:1..?

9) In the book in the core protocol under cytokine remodulation he says to combine tinctures of Salvia-Miltiorrhiza and Scutellaria Baicalensis.. I am a little confused by this because on the website it is not stated on there.. I also have never heard anyone speak of either of them when giving out the core protocol.. So if anyone knows more about this and could speak on it that would be great. smile

Im sorry i know this was sorta long.. But i thought it was much better to do it this way then to post about each individual quwstion.. LOL So if you stuck with this and read it all i appreciate it so much.. I would be very appreciative of as many answers and as much imput as i can get.. So i can start ordering everything i need because i am very anxious to start this.. smile
blush blush blush blush blush blush blush blush

Post Edited (Angel07) : 4/24/2018 9:25:59 PM (GMT-6)


Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 4/24/2018 11:32 PM (GMT -6)   
Angel - I may be able to answer a couple questions :

1) EGCG - I haven’t seen any specific brands mentioned on here.
I do know a few people who just drink green tea. Hopefully you will get some answers from members.
Or you could see if Natures Way or Herb Pharm has it - since those are brands he recommends for other herbs.

2) can’t help you with that

3) I use Swanson Activated B’s (methylated) - I don’t know if I have the MTHFR gene.

4) taking Astragalus when you have chronic Lyme can possibly cause an autoimmune reaction as it can ramp up the already over active immune system. He does say “can” meaning it isn’t a “given” it will happen.

5) can’t help with that

6) can’t help with that

7) I used the green dragon botanicals capsules jap knotweed and also the Woodland Essence tincture - so I don’t have knowledge on the whole herb.

8) Eleutheros - I used the green dragon brand. If you take any brand that Buhner recommends - it should be fine.

9) Can’t help with that
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 377
   Posted 4/25/2018 7:18 AM (GMT -6)   
Angel07 - I don't have any experience with Buhner's recommended sources (I'm in Canada so the US sources were expensive and often delayed for extended times at the border so I just stuck with local options based on recommendations from fellow lyme friends) but I have been following Bhuner's protocol for around 8 months so I thought I'd offer the comments I can.

(4) I have chronic lyme - I was 4 years before treatment - and I have taken Astragulus on and off. I'm still not quite sure how I react to it so it's never been a consistent part of my protocol. I am always drawn back to it because I was using it before I new I had lyme but after I was bitten and felt it was beneficial at the time and might be part of the reason my lyme progressed slowly. You could mix everything and keep the astragalus separate to mix in or not depending on what you feel.

(6) I have taken Andrographis on and off. I haven't had any trouble with it. One study found it beneficial in combination with curcumin for malaria so it's been part of my babesia protocol. I am cautious and haven't crossed 2 droppers 3x day. No sign of issues for me. Yet.

(9) I'd say Salvia-Miltiorrhiza and Scutellaria Baicalensis are pretty important. He has a good section on all the cytokines on 212 and for my symptoms at least I feel that the cytokine remodulation is a pretty important part of the protocol.

FWIW - I haven't followed the Buhner protocol to the letter and I've made good improvement so far. As he says repeatedly through out the book his suggestions are a starting point and there are many other herbs that can be used. I find myself repeatedly going back to the book (and his others), reading his reasonings and making minor changes, adjustments, or reassuring myself that I'm covered as I learn more. His way of approaching treatment makes so much sense to me that whenever I do make changes or additions I think about how they fit into the same picture.

Buhner's approach really appeals to the meticulous minded I think - it's empowering to have explanations and lots of options to work with smile

Wishing you much luck with your treatment.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

4meows
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2018
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 4/25/2018 9:23 AM (GMT -6)   
Hello, I started using herbs recommended by Buhner for Lyme at the beginning of February, though I have no input about questions 1-5 that you asked. Buhner's website is out of date when compared to his 2015 book, so I believe his newer book offers his latest suggestions. For your other questions:

6) I've used three types of Andrographis without issues. I started with a tincture produced by Montana Farmacy, but switched to pills from Nature's Way because of the awful taste. I now order a lot of my tinctures through Susquehanna Apothecary on etsy, and decided to give their Andrographis a try. I would start at very low dose and see if you develop hives. I definitely noticed a worsening of lyme-related symptoms when starting Andrographis and increasing the dose, so it was doing something.

7) I have not used any of the brands of Japanese Knotweed you mentioned. I started with tinctures from Montana Farmacy and am now taking a tincture produced by Susquehanna Apothecary. I think the quality of both has been very good and has helped.

8) For Eleuthero, his book is a bit confusing. Buhner mentions the weaker formulas to be more tonic in nature and the higher concentrations to be used for 30-60 days with a 2 week break in between. I used the Herb Pharm 2:1 tinctures to start, but again switched to Eleuthero from Susquehanna Apothecary, which is a 1:2.5 ratio.

9) I think the the chinese skullcap/red sage root mix was added to his 2015 book and was not originally part of his protocol, which is why it isn't on the website. I've taken red sage root tinctures from Montana Farmacy and Susquehanna Apothecary, and the chinese (baikal) skullcap tincture from Susquehanna Apothecary.

Given the long list of items in his protocol, I started purchasing a few of the key herbs and gradually added others in over time. It gets expensive quick.

Hope this helps.

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2473
   Posted 4/25/2018 10:01 AM (GMT -6)   
You mentioned the website vs the book. I just wanted to mention again (I sound like a broken record on this board on this topic - sorry), but the website is not supported or maintained by Buhner. It is run by somebody else. There have been numerous issues in the past (and current) where the website does not match the book. And many, many, many people have been confused by the inconsistencies between the website vs the book (or the website being out of date).

In my opinion, if you want Buhner's direct advice, go to his current books and not rely on the website. If you choose, you can definitely use the website as a source - but strongly keeping in mind that it's not from/maintained by Buhner.
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1997
   Posted 4/25/2018 10:27 AM (GMT -6)   
1000Daisies said...
You mentioned the website vs the book. I just wanted to mention again (I sound like a broken record on this board on this topic - sorry), but the website is not supported or maintained by Buhner. It is run by somebody else. There have been numerous issues in the past (and current) where the website does not match the book. And many, many, many people have been confused by the inconsistencies between the website vs the book (or the website being out of date).

In my opinion, if you want Buhner's direct advice, go to his current books and not rely on the website. If you choose, you can definitely use the website as a source - but strongly keeping in mind that it's not from/maintained by Buhner.


Just wanted to add to this to further clarify. The responses you see on the website to people's questions ARE from Buhner. So there is a wealth of information to be gleaned from those Q&A's. The information is well organized and dated. So if you see a response from say 2010 and you see something different in a response from 2013, that reflects changes in his protocols based on continued experience. His last books were published in 2015. One of the coinfection books was published in 2013. The books should be the most current protocols, and certainly the only complete protocols. The website only has the basic protocols listed.

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2473
   Posted 4/25/2018 10:33 AM (GMT -6)   
WBF, that is a good point to mention that he does the Q&A on the website (I usually mention that but missed that - sorry). Glad you find those helpful!

I often find his responses to be too short, personally, for generally such complicated questions.

And since he doesn't treat people, I sometimes wonder about his answers...
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1997
   Posted 4/25/2018 10:47 AM (GMT -6)   
1) EGCG

I got overwhelmed trying to figure this one out, too. The first round, I ended up using Teavigo brand. Then I switched to Bulk Supplements brand. Both have no caffeine and meet at least one of the requirements.

2) Hyaluronic Acid

Haven't done this.

3) Vit B Complex

I'm with you on this one. I don't know my genetics, but I do know I have major detox issues. I also have contact allergies/sensitivities per allergy patch testing to cobalt (Vit B12), chromium, and a shellfish allergy (which may or may not include iodine). I've been afraid of vitamin supplementation for those reasons, although I did used to take my parents multi vitamins years ago and never noticed any adverse reactions.

I just bought MegaFood brand Women's One Daily after comparing it to all the other versions of women's MegaFood vitamins. I chose it because it has a lower amount of the daily %. I did not want megadoses of anything, especially the ones I may have issues with. I have not tried it yet and will probably wait a week before starting anything new again.

4) Astragalus

I'm avoiding this for the same reason. For chronic fatigue, you might want to first try Eleuthero. That's the main herb he seems to go to for fatigue. I have taken some royal jelly and bee pollen, which I think has to do with energy also.

5) Spirulina

My Functional MD told me not to take anything with spirulina, as it is a blue-green algae. I have CIRS (biotoxin illness) and some forms of blue-green algae are toxin producing. I assume that's why she told me to stay away. I don't know what kind of quality controls companies have to ensure they aren't supplied with the wrong kind of algae. Beyond that, I believe there are some other issues but I'm not sure what they are.

6) Andrographis

Same here. I'm too scared of the hives. I'm convinced I'd be one of the ones.

7) Japanese Knotweed

Same here. I'd been using Plum Flower since last June and reordered last week from 1st Chinese. I nearly panicked when I saw they no longer had the powder, so I ordered Nuherb and emailed 1st Chinese about it. They told me the same thing - that both they and Plum Flower underestimated the amounts they needed and were waiting for the harvest. I told them I was nervous about switching brands, but they assured me Nuherb was just as good and reputable. (I never had any problems with the Plum Flower but one member on the forum did. I think those comments all came from one person.)

8) Eleuthero

I'd go with the Herb Pharm. He's mentioned that numerous times in numerous places.

9) Salvia / Scutellaria

Get it from Woodland Essence. On their site, it's called Red Sage & Baikal Skullcap. In my posts, I refer to it as Danshen/Skullcap.

The hardest part for me in the beginning was learning the language. All those herbs have multiple names and Buhner uses different names in different places. It was sooo confusing at first, but even with cognitive impairment, I've learned so much, and so will you. It's worth the effort. Wishing you well.

Notime4lyme
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 385
   Posted 4/25/2018 10:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Andrographis has definitely helped me. For some reason, it gives me acne on my face, but it is definitely not an allergic reaction. NOW foods seems the strongest to me. I heard that it can actually kill the spirochetes. It does seem to help some with my allergies too.

I also have had trouble with b complexes. I have one that I really like, but it does have some folic acid in it.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1997
   Posted 4/25/2018 10:57 AM (GMT -6)   
1000Daisies said...
WBF, that is a good point to mention that he does the Q&A on the website (I usually mention that but missed that - sorry). Glad you find those helpful!

I often find his responses to be too short, personally, for generally such complicated questions.

And since he doesn't treat people, I sometimes wonder about his answers...


He doesn't treat people now, but he did treat Lyme patients for over a decade. That's where his experiential knowledge comes from.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1997
   Posted 4/25/2018 11:03 AM (GMT -6)   
Angel07,

Someone mentioned expense. That is true if you use mostly tinctures or capsules and get to full doses. I have never been able to get anywhere near full doses, so I don't feel the financial pain as much as some do.

One thing I've done is order bulk powders for a number of things, which greatly reduces cost. These are the things I've ordered in bulk powder:

Japanese knotweed
Cat's claw
Ashwaganda
Quercetin
Absorbic Acid (Vit C)
Dandelion Root
L-glutamine

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 4/25/2018 1:36 PM (GMT -6)   
1000Daisies said...
WBF, that is a good point to mention that he does the Q&A on the website (I usually mention that but missed that - sorry). Glad you find those helpful!

I often find his responses to be too short, personally, for generally such complicated questions.

And since he doesn't treat people, I sometimes wonder about his answers...




I think Buhner says somewhere on the site that the protocols there are the shortened versions and some people do get well using that as a guide.

I also see that someone named Julie (I'd have to go back and check her last name) is answering the questions now. Not sure if it's Julie McIntyre (Gaian studies) who was (is?) his partner.

He's obviously fine with it...or he'd have it shut down..or at least speak up about it if he felt the information wasn't helpful...don't you think?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 4/25/2018 12:49:56 PM (GMT-6)


napoleon dynamite
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2017
Total Posts : 55
   Posted 4/25/2018 5:46 PM (GMT -6)   
try great cape herbs for the knotweed

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1997
   Posted 4/25/2018 5:52 PM (GMT -6)   
napoleon dynamite said...
try great cape herbs for the knotweed


I've never heard of that. I stick to the sources Buhner recommends, especially for the core herbs.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 4/25/2018 11:23 PM (GMT -6)   
WalkingbyFaith said...
napoleon dynamite said...
try great cape herbs for the knotweed


I've never heard of that. I stick to the sources Buhner recommends, especially for the core herbs.


I learned my lesson.

I was getting low on my WE hawthorn tincture and didn’t want to pay shipping cost for just one tincture so I went to our local health food store and purchased one made by a small company thinking it would be good quality.
Nope. Those of you taking Hawthorne know the “fruity” taste - I knew right away when I put the tincture on my tongue - it was bitter - horrible tasting.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 377
   Posted 4/26/2018 7:31 AM (GMT -6)   
Is it possible that the company you bought the hawthorn from was tincturing leaf and flower rather than berries Girle? One source I buy from offer both options and I believe these are sometimes used separately.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2473
   Posted 4/26/2018 9:30 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie, Hawthorne tastes fruity? Really??? I used it from WE and never thought it tasted fruity! How interesting!
Kid#1: Extremely sick for several years, very difficult to treat, but doing great now!
Kid#2: Still sick now despite being treated for years but doing better (not well yet).
Kid#3: Generally good but relapsing off/on.
Me: Adv Labs positive 2016 (suspected I passed to my kids)-not as sick as others, mostly battling fatigue and yeast issues (heart/kidney issues resolved)
Treating with herbals now.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 4/26/2018 12:46 PM (GMT -6)   
1000Daisies said...
Girlie, Hawthorne tastes fruity? Really??? I used it from WE and never thought it tasted fruity! How interesting!


It's got a pleasant taste compared to others' like cryptolepis...


A bit sweet
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33848
   Posted 4/26/2018 12:48 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet said...
Is it possible that the company you bought the hawthorn from was tincturing leaf and flower rather than berries Girle? One source I buy from offer both options and I believe these are sometimes used separately.


You know I don't remember if I checked - it was a couple years ago. That may have been the difference.

I know WE is leaf, flower and berries. And I think Sage Woman is also.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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