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OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/11/2018 9:17 AM (GMT -6)   
I'll restart mino and rifabutin. If i have lyme... it's not problem. Mino will work. But my major concern is if it's bart... Mimocycline was stopped 7 times, rifabutin 2 that mes.... i know rifampin can become resistant rapidly... i don't know if it happen with rifabutin...

What abx penetrate better csf?rifampin or rifabutin.

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/11/2018 9:44 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm not brave to take levaquin. I have eldher danlos syndrome type 1, i don't know if it's more risky to tendon rupture.

Aerose91
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 581
   Posted 5/11/2018 10:32 AM (GMT -6)   
Dr M says rifabutin is much stronger than rifampin. He seems to be the authority on bartonella so i take his word for it.

If you want to add something else to make sure bart isn't resistant, you could try houttinoya

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/11/2018 12:23 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
I'll restart mino and rifabutin. If i have lyme... it's not problem. Mino will work. But my major concern is if it's bart... Mimocycline was stopped 7 times, rifabutin 2 that mes.... i know rifampin can become resistant rapidly... i don't know if it happen with rifabutin...

What abx penetrate better csf?rifampin or rifabutin.


Why do you think that Bart can become resistant rapidly to Rifampin?

Dr J - one of the most experienced llmd’s has patients pulse the Rifampin/Rifabutin

That’s why you take one or more abx with it.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

mpost
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1527
   Posted 5/11/2018 1:03 PM (GMT -6)   
bart becomes resistant rapidly to rifampin if you are foolish enough to take rifampin alone for months. you take it with mino and mino does work on bartonella too, so this significantly lowers the chance bart will become resistant to rifampin.

the idea with resistance is that if bart is a single mutation away from becoming immune to rifampin, that may happen in several months. However to become resistant to both rifampin and mino, chances for that to happen in a group of cells is well .... VERY VERY LOW. so ... take both and be safe.


both rifampin and rifabutin penetrate well bbb. rifabutin has a much higher half-life than rifampin, meaning it stays longer in your blood stream and it can kill more bart.

both mino and rifampin/rifabutin are intracellular drugs. that is good because bart is an intracellular pathogen. it's not uncommon to add a third intracellular drug to these, like azithromycin. i took all 3 of them for 8+ months. im feeling fine now except for itchy eyes and foot pain, not sure if this can be fixed by anything ... i heard it could be related to MCAS.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/11/2018 1:24 PM (GMT -6)   
mpost - if bart becomes resistant to rifampin - does that mean it's resistant to Rifabutin, as well..since they are similar?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/11/2018 5:49 PM (GMT -6)   
I was concerned for the same reason girlie.

Mpost, thank you for your explanation.

I'll do this combo. Anyway, my doctor wanted levaquin 500 and doxy 600. Was it a lot? Toxicity etc...

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/12/2018 5:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie, i know that Ed.breitschwart say tha when azitro become resistant all macrolides make resistant... i don't know if it happens with rifabutin and rifampin.

If i do mino 100 x3 day and rifabutin 300mg once day. Do i need to add something more to bart?

Post Edited (OriolCarol) : 5/12/2018 6:44:47 AM (GMT-6)


OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/12/2018 6:51 AM (GMT -6)   
if levaquin wouldn't have a dark box, i'll use it with doxy, because i'm sure that it don't affect doxy levels for my lyme, but in case of rifabutin, if i'm not wrong mpost, did you say that it could reduce mino levels on plasma? rifabutin induce cytochrome p450 like rifampin? thank you mpost, and girlie! smile smile

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/12/2018 5:29 PM (GMT -6)   
I've put the first dose of rifabutin smile herx in two hours?is it possible?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/12/2018 7:19 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
I've put the first dose of rifabutin smile herx in two hours?is it possible?



That's quick, but yes two hours is enough time to get into the blood stream, kill of the b*ggers and create toxins.



I can't remember if rifabutin is a cytochrome P450 drug...
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/12/2018 7:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Looks like doxy is affected by Rifabutin as well.

I plugged both into the Drug Interaction checker I use:

Interactions between your drugs
Moderate
doxycycline rifabutin
Applies to: doxycycline, rifabutin
Using rifabutin together with doxycycline may decrease the effects of doxycycline.

BUT, FYI - LLMD MR has them listed as an option to treat bart in his Treatlyme online book.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/12/2018 7:57 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, i think it's weaker inducer than rifampim. In one study one medication was reduced 29% with rifabutin and 90% with rifampin.

Anyone i'm concerned about rifabutin and mino... i don't know because it's so complicated...

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/12/2018 7:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Because rifampin decrease doxy levels at 40%... it's a treatment faillure for lyme... and if mino is reduced so dramatically i prefer other drugs that don't touch it.

I know that two drugs are prefered and rif works sinergically with tetra, but the main ingredient have to be mino or doxy and of it depends survive or not... i'm very very worried about this... it can be a nonsense but i think that of it depends my life...

I think i'll test my serum levels of mino...

Post Edited (OriolCarol) : 5/12/2018 7:03:44 PM (GMT-6)


Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/12/2018 9:56 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
Yes, i think it's weaker inducer than rifampim. In one study one medication was reduced 29% with rifabutin and 90% with rifampin.

Anyone i'm concerned about rifabutin and mino... i don't know because it's so complicated...


Mino is fine with Rifabutin - the levels of mino isn’t being affected by rifabutin.

I also put mino/Rif in drug interaction checker - none
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 5/12/2018 8:59:15 PM (GMT-6)


OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/13/2018 7:35 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes Girlie, but i don't know if there are studies with mino and rif like doxy/rif...

OriolCarol
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2017
Total Posts : 730
   Posted 5/13/2018 2:17 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie,when you were treating bart, when did you started to see improvement?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/13/2018 5:42 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
Yes Girlie, but i don't know if there are studies with mino and rif like doxy/rif...


Mino and Rif is a combo that many llmd’s prescribe - That along with it showing no interactions on my drug interaction checker is enough for me
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33965
   Posted 5/13/2018 5:44 PM (GMT -6)   
OriolCarol said...
Girlie,when you were treating bart, when did you started to see improvement?


It was awhile - I think over 3 months before it worked for me.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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