Insomnia theory -- viscous blood

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Dahlias
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Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 456
   Posted 5/13/2018 3:49 AM (GMT -6)   
I wonder if this might explain some of that insomnia when you wake up and can't go back to sleep for a few hours ...

I noticed that when I wake up after sleeping for awhile, my heart rate seems to shoot up and I get a rush of blood all around my body. It made me think -- Lyme patients tend to have more viscous blood, correct? Mine definitely seems that way during blood draws. My theory is that when I wake up, my heart works hard for a short time to get that thick blood moving better. And I think when people's heart rate goes up, it takes awhile for it to go down enough to go to sleep. I've noticed with my young son that when he gets active or wound up, it's usually two hours before he can go to sleep, and that's often what it takes for me to go back to sleep in the middle of the night. I wonder if eating any foods that help thin the blood and presumably keep it moving better would mitigate this issue.

This doesn't explain why I always wake up between 1 and 4 a.m., no matter what time I went to bed. But I recently read that that is when the liver gets more active. My labs are fine but I'm getting liver spots. Another piece of the puzzle maybe? Could thinner blood plus healthier liver equal better sleep?

What do you think? Any science to back this up?

Post Edited (Dahlias) : 5/13/2018 4:01:37 AM (GMT-6)


sandyfeet
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 5/13/2018 4:13 AM (GMT -6)   
It’s an interesting theory Dahlias. I recently decided to drop red root for a bit because it can thicken the blood and I wasn’t sure if this was an issue for me. Most herbs are thinners. There’s some discussion in a thread from Buhner but he does say something different in one of his books (bart?) indicating that Sida might be fine and red root could possibly be dropped. I forget the details. Either way it’s an interesting point to consider.

http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/red-root-and-hypercoagulation/

I’m doing some reading on GABA receptors and trying to understand that side of things better. Anything that might give better insight into those wee morning hours smile
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

k07
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Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2501
   Posted 5/13/2018 7:32 AM (GMT -6)   
It also sounds a bit like an adrenaline rush. I haven’t completely figured my issue out. I was doing well for a bit and now it’s back. I had stopped rhodiola so I’m going to add back in to see if it helps.

Dahlias
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Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 456
   Posted 5/13/2018 10:43 AM (GMT -6)   
k07 said...
It also sounds a bit like an adrenaline rush. I haven’t completely figured my issue out. I was doing well for a bit and now it’s back. I had stopped rhodiola so I’m going to add back in to see if it helps.


I've woken up with adrenaline rushes before, and this is different. The adrenaline rush feels unpleasant to me. This is neutral, like an HVAC system kicking in.


Sandyfeet, something called Gabatrex (an L-theanine supplement) has helped me a little. I'd be interested to hear what you find.

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32588
   Posted 5/13/2018 11:09 AM (GMT -6)   
Well, i'm not sure what's happening to me.


Early on - prior to treatment it started. I'd wake in a panic a couple times a night plus early morning (around 6 or 7 a.m.) with my heart racing, sweating, anxiety and gasping for air.

Then after treatment started, (or maybe just prior?) the gasping for air stopped but still sweating, heart racing and anxiety - once in the night and then early morning.

Now I usually just get woken in the morning with the sweating and heart racing.
This latest pattern has been for over a year now.

Such a horrible way to start the day...

Couple things:

I read it could be a drop in blood sugar...causing the body to go into fight/flight.
But, I checked my blood sugar within minutes of this happening...and it's not too low.

When I use an alarm to wake me up...I'm fine.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 5/13/2018 12:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Interesting Girlie. It sounds like classic babesia but weird the way your ‘wake point’ has slowly stretched out. I hope that’s a good sign.

I wish I understood better what sort of things are being messed with in our bodies that cause insomnia and of course there are so many different kinds and variables. I’ve read the blood sugar theory and I’ve tried coconut oil and a bit of honey to no avail. I’ve read IL-17 and so I’ve focused on inflammation and cytokine modulation. I tried l-theanine but didn’t see much difference. Lately I find I’m tired and then suddenly I need to start tapping my foot and I’m awake for hours. Both valerian and Gou teng do this to me and the more I read about GABA receptors the more I feel like something is messed up for me and agonists are becoming antagonists.

It’s weird to hear more stories and realize that there may be as many types of insomnia as their are Lymies.

K07 - mine resolved too early in treatment and I was overjoyed - now it’s back but it feels like something different is going on.

Dahlias - I love the description of an hvac turning on. I haven’t had that variety yet but I’ll keep an eye out for it now. smile
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4879
   Posted 5/13/2018 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Dahlias-

What you describe is adrenals. These infections hit the endo sys hard.

Your endo sys is "off its clock".

Dahlias
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 456
   Posted 5/13/2018 12:33 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Dahlias-

What you describe is adrenals. These infections hit the endo sys hard.

Your endo sys is "off its clock".


Wouldn't that cause the panicky feeling and physical symptoms Girlie described? I used to wake up that way, but this has none of that. I can feel very peaceful. In fact, the times I sleep best and longest I notice this more.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 4879
   Posted 5/13/2018 1:15 PM (GMT -6)   
" I wake up, my heart works hard for a short time" - adrenals do that. Adrenals and thyroid can both be gradual.

Panic is only in extreme cases, like panic attack.

Have you rulled out mechanical sleep apnea?

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1676
   Posted 5/13/2018 6:00 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet said...
It’s an interesting theory Dahlias. I recently decided to drop red root for a bit because it can thicken the blood and I wasn’t sure if this was an issue for me. Most herbs are thinners. There’s some discussion in a thread from Buhner but he does say something different in one of his books (bart?) indicating that Sida might be fine and red root could possibly be dropped. I forget the details. Either way it’s an interesting point to consider.

http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/red-root-and-hypercoagulation/

I’m doing some reading on GABA receptors and trying to understand that side of things better. Anything that might give better insight into those wee morning hours smile


Yeah. Lots of herbs can thin blood. I'd look into those and try them.

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1676
   Posted 5/13/2018 6:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Both waking up and having trouble going back to sleep and heart racing are in Gordon Medical's description of babesia. www.gordonmedical.com/unravelling-complex-chronic-illness/babesia-like-organisms-bablo-consideration-signs-and-symptoms/

However, in Buhner's bartonella book, he says any heart problems should be a clue to a bartonella infection and that bartonella can cause insomnia. The insomnia reference is part of a quoted work attributed to Maurin and Raoult 1996, 280.

Hard to say which is right, or maybe both are.

I have had both of the symptoms you described. I have not tested positive for either bart or babs, but I have the more definitive signs of bart (striae, stretch marks, foot pain, bone pain). Doesn't mean I couldn't also have babs. Bart is just much more obvious in my symptom picture.

If you have either bart or babs and especially if you are treating either of those right now, they would be suspect IMO.

borrelioburgdorferii
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 209
   Posted 5/13/2018 7:11 PM (GMT -6)   
I have sleep apnea and it's a lot like this. I have central and obstructive (mechanical) mix. Without the machine I am in for hellish insomnia, and lately I take trazodone (sedative/antidepressant) which helps me achieve the much-needed REM sleep, though it feels like I shouldn't knock myself out without this respirator sort of device anyway.

As for the hypercoagulation, I'm sad to say my health care provider assigned cardiologist would not even hear it, because I dont have the sort of insurance (or any) that would pay for any fancy extra test or doctor without a lot of paperwork. But I'm sure blood thickening is part of my symptomology, like 100% sure. I get this weird dull vascular pain in my armpits, and I also have treatment-resistant HBP, well yeah thats hypercoagulation, well tell that to the doctors that don't understand Lyme-literacy and co-infections nor their symptoms.

Also, look at HPA axis disruption, which a beta-blocker (toprol, metoprolol) may help somewhat, adrenally anyway, good luck.
Tick bite/EM rash +10 years ago
Active, athletic, with past concussions.
1st known bite: tick infested area, flu, chills, fever, neuro symptoms.
Treat with ABX/herbs recently (2-5 years now).
Get symptom free with strict diet: paleo/keto/IM fasting
Have done Buhner's Protocol, Doxycycline, Amoxicillin, Supplements.
IgG via IgeneX 31-IND, 41++, 58+ (Sep-2016)
IgM via IgeneX 31+, 41-IND (Sep-2016)

Dahlias
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 456
   Posted 5/13/2018 7:12 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm not sure I described the heart part accurately -- I know my heat rate increases compared to when I'm sleeping, but that's really not what I'm noticing. I'm noticing the surge of blood through all my limbs. It's kind of like when your foot falls asleep and it's waking up again, but milder. I'll try to pay more attention next time and see if I can describe it better. Maybe this is just me? Lol.
"This too shall pass. It might pass like a kidney stone, but it will pass."

Lyme, babesia, mycoplasma pneumonia. Diagnosed May 2017. Neuro symptoms began September 2017. Treating 11 months so far.

Dahlias
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 456
   Posted 5/13/2018 7:20 PM (GMT -6)   
I haven't looked into sleep apnea, but my mom has it and she's been encouraging me to get tested.

I've been treating for babesia for months now and most of the night symptoms are better than they were. This is way better than waking up panicky and drenched in sweat, and I'm getting more sleep than before. Don't know if I have bart.

Thank you all, I'll look into the ideas you mentioned.
"This too shall pass. It might pass like a kidney stone, but it will pass."

Lyme, babesia, mycoplasma pneumonia. Diagnosed May 2017. Neuro symptoms began September 2017. Treating 11 months so far.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32588
   Posted 5/13/2018 10:31 PM (GMT -6)   
borrelioburgdorferii said...
I have sleep apnea and it's a lot like this. I have central and obstructive (mechanical) mix. Without the machine I am in for hellish insomnia, and lately I take trazodone (sedative/antidepressant) which helps me achieve the much-needed REM sleep, though it feels like I shouldn't knock myself out without this respirator sort of device anyway.

As for the hypercoagulation, I'm sad to say my health care provider assigned cardiologist would not even hear it, because I dont have the sort of insurance (or any) that would pay for any fancy extra test or doctor without a lot of paperwork. But I'm sure blood thickening is part of my symptomology, like 100% sure. I get this weird dull vascular pain in my armpits, and I also have treatment-resistant HBP, well yeah thats hypercoagulation, well tell that to the doctors that don't understand Lyme-literacy and co-infections nor their symptoms.

Also, look at HPA axis disruption, which a beta-blocker (toprol, metoprolol) may help somewhat, adrenally anyway, good luck.


I also tested and have central and obstructive...but it's much better - so my husband says anyway. He used to hear me - I'd stop breathing...and then take a gasp for air...not doing that anymore.
Maybe that's why I'm not waking during the night anymore.

I'm going to do a re-test - wear the monitor and see if my test results for sleep apnea improves.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32588
   Posted 5/13/2018 10:34 PM (GMT -6)   
One other thing - I'm wondering if its related to high or low cortisol. I should dig out my 4 pt saliva cortisol test and see what my morning number was.


I just don't know why mine has gotten better...except I still have the one in the morning ...


My LLND wanted me to go on the Propranolol beta blocker...but not for that reason. He thought it might control my shivering.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 282
   Posted 5/14/2018 2:04 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm pretty sure that I have central apnea as I stop breathing during the day and then do the double gasp inhale. No one has commented on it at night so I haven't tested yet for mechanical apnea. I haven't noticed it very often lately (probably only once in the last month) and I've always assumed it was a babesia symptom. Most information online seems to say central apnea is rare but it seems to be mentioned in lyme circles a lot.

There are some studies that link apnea to IL-17 so you might try exploring Self-Hacked's ideas - https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/th17/ - I take some of these things and haven't noticed a difference but I still have a strong feeling that cytokine modulation is a big part of the picture.

I used to get really cold and shiver all the time too Girlie. I'd often tell my kids I needed to pop up for a 'little hot Mummy bath' to restore my temperature. Just a couple of minutes in the tub and I'd be ok. No amount of sweaters or the wood stove running would do it.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017
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