Buhner protocol help - $932 just to get started...

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
34 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

cppoly
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 344
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:01 AM (GMT -6)   
I’m going to try treatment for lyme, babesia, and bartonella using buhner’s protocol. The books have additional protocol requirements than the website and I want to follow the books as closely as possible but for my first order it looks like it will cost $932, which may last just around a month and several things will need to be refilled around the 2 week marker (most of the tinctures). I switched to as many bulk powders as possible to help save costs because tinctures are ridiculously expensive and only last 2 weeks at protocol dosage.

Can anyone provide any comment on the protocol, maybe some things are not necessary. Since many categories overlap, I shifted somethings around so that I only have one occurrence of an herb (meaning I don’t repeat Japanese knotweed three times for lyme, babesia, etc.):

LYME CORE PROTOCOL

Endothial Protection
Japanese Knotweed (Polygonum root) - powder

Cytokine Remodulation
Red Sage (Salvia miltiorrhiza, Dan Shen) - powder
Chinese Skullcap (Scutelleria baicalensis) - powder

Immune Remodulation
Cat's claw bark (Uncaria tomentosa) - powder
Cordyceps mycelium - powder
Ashwaganda (Withania somnifera) - powder
Rhodolia - tincture
Licorice - tincture

Antispirochetal
Andrographis - powder

Neuroborreliosis
Uncaria rhynchophylla (Chinese Cat's Claw, Gou-Teng) - tincture
Tryptophan - pills

Sleep disturbrance/insomnia/anxiety
Motherwort (Leonurus cardiac) - tincture
Schisandra chinensis - tincture
Greater celandine - tincture

Protect Collagen Structures
Great Lakes gelatin - powder

MYCOPLASMA PROTOCOL

Cytokine cascade
NAC - pills
Kudzu root (Pueraria labata) - tincture

Antibacterials
Isatis (2/3 root, 1/3 leaves) - powder
Houttuynia cordata - tincture

Organ Support
Sida acuta - tincture
Red root (caenothus spp.) - powder

BARTONELLA PROTOCOL

Cytokine cascade
EGCG - pills
Quercertin - pills

Organ protection
Milk thistle (standardized to 80% silymarin) - pills
Hawthorn (Crataegus oxyacantha) - tincture

Antibacterials
Alchornea - tincture

BABESIA PROTOCOL (USE FOR 3O TO 60 DAYS, REPEAT IF NECESSARY)

Antibabesial herbs

Cryptolepis sanguinolenta - tincture
Bidens pilosa - tincture

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 277
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:32 AM (GMT -6)   
It does get crazy expensive following the full protocol especially if you tolerate higher doses unfortunately. I know most people prefer to buy from Buhner’s recommended sources but I recently switched to a small herbalist recommended by my naturopath and I’ve been happy so far as they’ve also done custom tinctures for me at higher concentration.

FWIW There were very few of these that I was willing to drop until recently. Andrographis is one I only use occasionally and I think Buhner says somewhere that it is no longer considered essential. I use it largely because it is possibly also antimalarial so may hit babesia when used in conjunction with curcumin. I, personally didn’t find much benefit from the sleep herbs although I use motherwort occasionally - hopefully these will work better for you asgood sleep is priceless. I recently decided to drop red root as it is a blood thickener (if I remember correctly) and in the bart book I think he mentions somewhere that Sida does a lovely job on its own for this.

If you end up using/reaching high doses of Isatis you may want to pulse it on and off (pg 169 in the mycoplasma section I think) but I have a feeling that wasn’t his intention if you’re only doing 1 dropperful short term.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

mpost
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1519
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:40 AM (GMT -6)   
there is nowhere to run when it comes to lyme treatment costs. Buhner is expensive, Cowden is more expensive, rehab clinics are VERY expensive, LLMD visits are not cheap ....

lyme is a disease for rich people. you pay taxes to the state and the state abandons u to herbalists, charlatans, ill equipped LLMDs , clinics with crazy unproven treatments, and everything in between.

but we plan to send people to Mars ... oh well ...

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 277
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:43 AM (GMT -6)   
By the way I found dacarte3’s comments on how he cycles his herbs at the end of your cordyceps post most interesting. Depending on where you are in treatment I think exploring minimal protocols or cycling things in and out is an interesting discussion.

I’ve been going over Buhner’s books repeatedly times looking for a more compact protocol for a bit now based on which herbs seem to have the strongest effect for me, testing higher doses in these, cycling out some I feel I may have been on too long, and focusing on core ones (for me) like the bakail skullcap and red sage.

Interested to hear other comments.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 277
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:45 AM (GMT -6)   
Half laughing half deep sighing mpost. It’s a sad truth. At least lyme is less expensive than some diseases I think (hope).
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

HzKabod
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2016
Total Posts : 128
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:49 AM (GMT -6)   
Your cost may be significantly less if you don't need the recommended doses, so be encouraged. I would not recommend starting out at the suggested doses. The counsel on this forum has always been start low & go slow. That has served me well in several ways. One, it decreases the potential for severe herxing. Two, by going so low I found that I have successfully been treating my symptoms at really low doses, which adds up to much savings. You might also be successful at low doses.

And please don't start all those herbs at one time! You can throw yourself into a strong detox scenario & you won't know which herbs to cut back on. It is best to introduce 1 herb at a time at a low dose so you can monitor your response & know if you need to back off on that herb if the detox becomes too strong.

With all that in mind, you don't need to start off buying all those products at one time if putting out that much money up front is an issue. Choose the symptoms of disease you want to concentrate on & buy those herbs first.

And remember to get a good detox protocol started first before you address infections. I thought I was good to go on my detox protocol before I started taking herbs & I was in for a rude awakening when the herxing started. These herbs are very strong, at least for my sensitive system. Read up on all & implement the recommended detox supports so you are ready. There is lots of info on this site as well as others.

Best to you.

elvin
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2018
Total Posts : 86
   Posted 5/17/2018 10:54 AM (GMT -6)   
I've only done a few of the burner herbs but I didn't get as much out of it as apple cider vinegar, coconut oil/monolaurin, oregano, cinnamon, olive leaf, niacin, etc... Plus his full protocol seems like a full time job. I just pop a few capsules about 4 times a day and I have very few symptoms left and even those are disappearing slowly.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32558
   Posted 5/17/2018 11:02 AM (GMT -6)   
Just wanted to say you've been given some good advice already...and good luck!
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

cppoly
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 344
   Posted 5/17/2018 11:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for replies. The good news is at least I should know within 14 to 60 days if the protocol is working. So far nothing in my life has worked so this is exciting in some way. I'll start off slow too, that should help with cost.

Sandyfeet, If I remember buhner mentioned the herbs shouldn't pulsed and it's a bad idea.

sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 277
   Posted 5/17/2018 11:08 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes, he does. Isatis is an exception to this if taken at large doses for longer than a month or so. It’s in the discussion on Isatis in the mycoplasma chapter, pg 169 if I remember, but I don’t have the book handy at the moment.

I find Isatis very beneficial for me and do cycle it at high dose. Currently 1-2 weeks on and 2 weeks off or so.

Post Edited (sandyfeet) : 5/17/2018 11:11:32 AM (GMT-6)


sandyfeet
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 277
   Posted 5/17/2018 11:52 AM (GMT -6)   
Also, my comments on cycling / rotating herbs re dacarte3 is with respect to being at the end of treatment. You definitely want to stick with the full protocol while you are actively in treatment. Since you’ve been treating a while I wasn’t clear if you were switching from abx to herbs or a previous treatment protocol.
Bulls eye rash August 2013
Started treating with Buhner herbs July 2017
Treating Borellia, Babesia and Bartonella as of November 2017

NicHostetler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 621
   Posted 5/17/2018 11:57 AM (GMT -6)   
One thing that Buhner mentions over and over is that not every herb is needed for everyone. Sometimes (rarely) just Japanese Knotweed and Cats Claw is enough for Lyme.

Good luck and keep us updated!!
Very sick starting around 07/2016
Started treatment 03/2017
Bixain & Cefdinir - 3 months - plateaued
Then Biaxin & Minocycline - 3 months - did not improve
Tinidazole - 500MG 2x a day - 2 weeks
Mepron 5mL 2x a day Zithromax - 3 months - no improvement
Cats Claw, Gou Teng, CSA, Japanese Knotweed - 6-9 months - no improvement
CURRENTLY TAKING:
*Cordyceps
*Rifampin- 300mg
*Biaxin

cppoly
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 344
   Posted 5/17/2018 12:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Sandy

benfast
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2018
Total Posts : 3
   Posted 5/17/2018 3:47 PM (GMT -6)   
One of my docs told me a great strategy to get supplement costs down that he uses wth his patients. Drop one supplement/herb that you feel is the least essential and see if your symptoms worsen... if they do, you know you need it, if they don’t then you probably don’t have to buy it again and you’ve saved some money.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32558
   Posted 5/17/2018 6:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi benfast - welcome to our community.

Are you currently in treatment for Lyme?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Angel07
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 27
   Posted 5/17/2018 11:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Cppoly, I have been shopping around on the internet myself and making a list of all the herbs/supplements I need as I am going to try the Buhner protocol myself.. I am also using all of Buhners recommended sources.. I am just courious how many ounces for each tincture you plan on ordering because I wanted to see if I could help because with all the looking around on the internet for all the things I need I think I've found the best prices I can find for each one.. So I added all of your things up just to see if I was able to lower the price you came to.. In doing so I can to a SIGNIFICANTLY lower price then what you added yours up to be.. So that is why I an wondering how many ounces you accounted for each one?

cppoly
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 344
   Posted 5/18/2018 4:07 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Angel07, all of them are 4 oz bottles from woodland essence at $42, except motherwort 8 oz for $72 because of the high dosage. Also I doubled up on cordyceps because of the high dosage as well. Where are you getting your tincures?

tickbite666
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 1601
   Posted 5/18/2018 5:13 AM (GMT -6)   
Woodland Essence also has a JK Plus blend of JK, Cat's Claw, Licorice, Cordyceps (which are on your list) plus Eleuthero. get the big bottle to stretch your $$$.

Start with the core items that are common across the three B's. I agree with others to rotate in the other items to test effectiveness or to treat specific symptoms. I had a rule that when I add a new supplement I drop one that I feel has marginal benefit. And to steal a comment from Bryan Rosner's latest book (loosely quoted)... "just because something you tried didn't work in the past doesn't mean it won't work if you take it again in the future". It's all a crap shoot.

Shop around and look for discount codes, BOGO, and free shipping when you can get it.

1000Daisies
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 2421
   Posted 5/18/2018 9:41 AM (GMT -6)   
tickbite666 said...
Woodland Essence also has a JK Plus blend of JK, Cat's Claw, Licorice, Cordyceps (which are on your list) plus Eleuthero. get the big bottle to stretch your $$$.

Start with the core items that are common across the three B's. I agree with others to rotate in the other items to test effectiveness or to treat specific symptoms. I had a rule that when I add a new supplement I drop one that I feel has marginal benefit. And to steal a comment from Bryan Rosner's latest book (loosely quoted)... "just because something you tried didn't work in the past doesn't mean it won't work if you take it again in the future". It's all a crap shoot.


tickbite beat me to it. I'd suggest looking into some of the combination herbals at Woodland Essence.

Personally, if I had to do it over again, I would have started with the combination herbals instead of all the individual ones. (That isn't necessarily the common belief here on this board - but I feel strongly about it for us. We spent far too much time adding individual herbals one by one. Wished we would have done the combination herbals sooner. Lesson learned!)

Also, I've done Buhner for years, and I'm now switching over to Byron White herbals. They are combination herbals.

Wishing you the best!

Psilociraptor
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 1228
   Posted 5/18/2018 9:52 AM (GMT -6)   
You do not need all that. I've found some of buhners herbs realllllly work. And some don't for me. Right now, Japanese knotweed is sufficient to keep a quality of life. I add in other herbs to see if I can make more progress every once in a while and then rotate them out if they don't do anything. Honestly for all the endothelial protection and cytokine modulators the best way to protect your arteries and lower inflammation is to not be infected. So an antibacterial like knotweed (he doesn't talk about this aspect much, but it does cause me to herx strongly) is sufficient for me. Not that other stuff can't help but it's not helped me much and I think the best way to approach this is to take what works and leave what doesn't rather than reading his book like gospel

acarined
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 173
   Posted 5/18/2018 10:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Have you tried any of these? You might not tolerate some, have no use for others, and get significant benefit from a minority. Knotweed, cat's claw, and andrographis (allergic reactions for some) are the herbs that have helped me most; skullcap will knock me out with drowsiness for over 12 hours, EGCG and quercetin will give me a migraine, and I'm allergic to milk thistle. I would start with the essentials and slowly add others over weeks.

cppoly
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 344
   Posted 5/18/2018 11:13 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for the input. I have not tried any of them, but I fear if I only go into this with just barely getting my feet wet, then I could be wasting my time had I not pursued the complete or almost complete protocol. I just want to have everything on hand and I'm hoping I can drop off a few if not needed. I spent $10,000 already and need this to be a knock out / grand slam without any time wasted so I'm preparing for the worst by getting everything and hoping I won't need them all (as opposed to only buying a few and then regretting it). I'm on the verge of getting divorced so I can't waste anymore time sad

dacarte3
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1897
   Posted 5/18/2018 1:02 PM (GMT -6)   
sandyfeet said...
By the way I found dacarte3’s comments on how he cycles his herbs at the end of your cordyceps post most interesting. Depending on where you are in treatment I think exploring minimal protocols or cycling things in and out is an interesting discussion.

I’ve been going over Buhner’s books repeatedly times looking for a more compact protocol for a bit now based on which herbs seem to have the strongest effect for me, testing higher doses in these, cycling out some I feel I may have been on too long, and focusing on core ones (for me) like the bakail skullcap and red sage.

Interested to hear other comments.


I've read all of Buhner's books including his herbal anti-bacterial book (which isn't any one specific infection(s) book).

It was reading this book specifically, that made me realize that if you understand the herbs front and back, what they do and how they do it then you can use Buhner foundational ground work but then create your own "custom" protocols.

Step 1: pick 2 to 3 herbs that are potent antibacterials. Be diverse and choose one that's borrelia, one that is Bart one that is Babs (the 3 Bs).

Step 2: pick 2 to 3 anti-inflammatory/cytokine reducing herbs. Be diverse and choose the ones down regulate an array of negative cascades. One may greatly reducing ABC and the other XYZ. And up regulate an array of positive cascades. These are all listed in his book and you can take those cascades and googling them to understand what they are and what they do.

Step 3: pick 2 to 3 immune boosters

Step 4: pick 2 to 3 organ protectors (kidneys, liver, heart, CNS, circulatory system/blood cells, cellular protection).

Many of these herbs have functions that cross different steps. But even if you do 2 of each or 3 of each, it's 8-12 herbs versus 25 to 30 herbs.

Take all 8-12 or if you can't handle that many (like me) do 5-6 herb rotations and keep the rotations tight if you are going to rotate. Don't take several weeks off anyone protocol.
Lyme (Igenex) - Positive IFA and WB bands 23, 31, 41
Ehrlichia (Igenex)
Mycoplasma (Labcorp) - Score: 595

ABX Treatment: 03/2016-04/2016; 7/2017-9/2017
Buhner Protocol for Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella and Mycoplasma (treating everything to be on the safe side): May 2016 - Dec. 2016; 8/2017 - Present

WalkingbyFaith
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 1672
   Posted 5/18/2018 8:24 PM (GMT -6)   
This post has some of the best, most well thought out responses I've seen in a while.

Spanish
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 136
   Posted 5/20/2018 12:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Wow.. all these prices you are talking about seem crazy to me .. I buy all my herbs from the Uk they seem much cheaper than the prices quoted here for example 1 litre of 1:3 jk tincture works out at 44 dollars
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
34 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
Forum Information
Currently it is Wednesday, June 20, 2018 12:02 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 2,973,555 posts in 326,184 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 161034 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, rikkitheodora.
321 Guest(s), 4 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
Girlie, Sheeks175, fiddlecanoe, Befilter