Insomnia herx bartonella herbs

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LJohn23
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   Posted 5/18/2018 11:54 PM (GMT -6)   
I am doing buhner bartonella herbal protocol. When bartonella really got out of control I started to have bad insomnia going to bed at 3:30 in the morning. It eventually subsided but Im still going to bed really late. Now that Im treating bartonella , the insomnia has crept its way back. Any one have experience with this and when did it go away? Thanks

mpost
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   Posted 5/19/2018 12:13 AM (GMT -6)   
i always have insomnia during herxes.
- some gi inflammation
- insomnia
- neuro issues
- feeling tired

they come and go...

doors12
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Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 716
   Posted 5/19/2018 1:06 AM (GMT -6)   
If it is mild would chamomile capsules and melatonin help you establish an earlier bedtime?

I eventually had to resort to lunesta and klonopin and continue treatments
Positive test for lyme disease antibodies, brucella, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, mycoplasma 2015
Pancolitis Ulcerative Colitis (Mild to Moderate) dx in 2006 diagnosis changed to acute infectious colitis 2015
3/2014 heterozygous mthfr
Herbal treatment with addition of Alinia/tinidazole

LJohn23
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 155
   Posted 5/19/2018 1:15 AM (GMT -6)   
Mpost, thanks have you gotten better on the buhner protocol?

isitlyme
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 110
   Posted 5/29/2018 6:46 AM (GMT -6)   
Hello doors12 and ljohn23,

I have been following your posts . I AM having the same problem as you. I started two days ago 1 cup of houttunyia tea a day, and i had severe insomnia even if i took my usual oxazepam pill for sleep. My Psych symptoms also ramped up severe. Yesterday i skipped the tea and took azithromycin 500mg, and and i managed to sleep altough woke up One hour later then i could resume again. My hands and feets where also extremly jittery on houttunyia, there were mild only. But with houttunyia it exploded. So Im trying to find a pattern here, i found that houttunyia is used by traditional medicicine as a sedative, well i started to believe it is a stimulant like black tea or something, but after seeing your posts i Wonder if this is herx from Bart.
How are you going now, are you still taking houttunyia, is it worth resuming?

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 5/29/2018 5:49:54 AM (GMT-6)


LJohn23
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   Posted 5/29/2018 6:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Isitlyme, bartonella was making me have insomnia anyways where id fall asleep at 3 then wake right up at 7 like I never even went to sleep. It was tough for sure. That was during a stressful the time so I caught a lot of brat symptoms when my immune was down. Things like sore feet and muscle spasms have gone down. Im sleeping better.still have some terrible brain fog, anxiety, depression, dark purple stretch marks on my legs. I stopped all treatment because now I don't know which treatment I should follow. Buhner does have a lot of other stimulating herbs in the protocol that don't settle well with me.

isitlyme
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   Posted 5/29/2018 7:25 AM (GMT -6)   
Did you stopped houttunyia then?

LJohn23
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   Posted 5/29/2018 10:47 AM (GMT -6)   
Yeah I stopped everything. I really think its just an increase of the bartonella symptoms which include insomnia and once you stop herxing so much your sleep should return.

WalkingbyFaith
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   Posted 5/29/2018 11:19 AM (GMT -6)   
mpost said...
i always have insomnia during herxes.
- some gi inflammation
- insomnia
- neuro issues
- feeling tired

they come and go...


I have the same thing, except I don't notice tiredness as much. I also get increased chemical sensitivities.

The insomnia thing definitely seems to be connected to bart herxes for me. All I can say is detox and maybe reduce doses a little and SLOWLY increase.

isitlyme
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 110
   Posted 5/29/2018 2:48 PM (GMT -6)   
But mine wasnt just insomnia i didnt slept the entire night. Was your insomnias entire nights?

doors12
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Date Joined Jul 2006
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   Posted 5/29/2018 3:01 PM (GMT -6)   
I will post after work sorry to hear you are going through it, it was bad for me, but i got thru...ttyl

LJohn23
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Date Joined Mar 2018
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   Posted 5/29/2018 3:47 PM (GMT -6)   
Mine was never entire nights sorry your going through that you must really be infected but maybe detoxing as much as possible while doing treatment will help that.

WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
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   Posted 5/29/2018 4:32 PM (GMT -6)   
I did have insomnia entire nights in the very beginning for 3 nights straight. I didn't even feel sleepy during the day.

LJohn23 and isitLyme,

Sounds like you both may have started out with too high doses of the herbs or increased too fast.

No need to stop treatment for fear you're doing the wrong treatment. Sounds like you have bart and the bart treatment is causing an increase in bart symptoms (herx). That is very common. If the herxing is too much, reduce your doses significantly until you're not herxing excessively. Once you're good at that dose, then SLOWLY increase.

Buhner's doses are high, and there are many who can only tolerate tiny doses (as in drops instead of teaspoons). You may or may not be one of those tiny dose people. You will know soon enough. If you are, do not despair. Simply take whatever dose you can tolerate.

STIMULATING HERBS:

I think you may be misinterpreting some things. The only herb I'm aware of that is reputed to be too stimulating for some is eleuthero, and it is not in the bartonella protocol.

I'm making some assumptions here, so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm thinking your senses or nervous system feels overly stimulated like ADD/OCD, anxiety, feeling wired but tired, have to move and have trouble being still, racing thoughts or even racing heart.

IMO, those are symptoms of bartonella itself. If herbs are causing those kinds of symptoms or are making those symptoms worse, it's because the herbs are working and are hitting bartonella.

Hope this helps.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 5/29/2018 3:50:05 PM (GMT-6)


WalkingbyFaith
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Date Joined Aug 2017
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   Posted 5/29/2018 4:54 PM (GMT -6)   
LJohn23 said...
Isitlyme, bartonella was making me have insomnia anyways where id fall asleep at 3 then wake right up at 7 like I never even went to sleep. It was tough for sure. That was during a stressful the time so I caught a lot of brat symptoms when my immune was down. Things like sore feet and muscle spasms have gone down. Im sleeping better.still have some terrible brain fog, anxiety, depression, dark purple stretch marks on my legs. I stopped all treatment because now I don't know which treatment I should follow. Buhner does have a lot of other stimulating herbs in the protocol that don't settle well with me.


terrible brain fog, anxiety, depression - these are more common with babesia. If you're taking Sida acuta in the bartonella protocol, it also is one of the best herbs for babesia.

Purple stretch marks - absolutely a bartonella symptom

No need to stop treatment. You're on the right track. See my other post above.

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
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   Posted 5/29/2018 5:50 PM (GMT -6)   
100% have dealt with this, incredibly aggravating and exhausting. Insomnia has always been one of my bart symptoms, and it always got super bad whenever I was treating with effective antimicrobials. I'd often get a wired tired sort of feeling.

I suggest doing as much detox as possible, maybe taking a mini-break from antimicrobials (day or two), and then restarting at lower levels.

Good luck! there are ways around these issues, at least ways to minimize them, and for me insomnia did improve as I kept treating with effective protocols.

LJohn23
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 155
   Posted 5/29/2018 8:53 PM (GMT -6)   
Seberg were you able to beat your bartonella? What did treatments did you do?

10LymeB
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   Posted 5/29/2018 9:38 PM (GMT -6)   
I didn't have insomnia at all until after stems at Infusio. BUT...I have found the holy grail of sleep aids. It's called Sleep Starter from PatchMD. It's all natural in patch form and it works like a charm! OMG. Best sleep ever!!

/www.patchmd.com/Sleep-Starter-Topical-Patch.html

I'm usually out within 20-30 mins and I sleep the whole night through. Check it out. I'm trying not to use it every night, but when I get that icky, can't sleep, tossing and turning, can't get comfortable feeling, I put one on and it's goodnight!

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
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   Posted 5/29/2018 10:22 PM (GMT -6)   
LJohn23 said...
Seberg were you able to beat your bartonella? What did treatments did you do?


I've improved it a lot, still not perfect but much better. Working my way back from a deep hole as many of us are (I was bedridden for years, misdiagnosed for a super long time). I'm still trying various treatments to keep improving. I've rotated through a lot of protocols, including dapsone protocol and pza protocol. They were both pretty helpful. I actually did try levaquin (even though I was pretty scared of potential side effects), I couldn't manage that drug because the herxes were just too monstrous.

All in all I think the PZA protocol was one of the best ones for me. It combo'd pza along with several other intracellulars and other abx (including things like bactrim, doxy, rifabutin, grapefruit seed extract). I've also done a lot of herbal treatments as well, I tend to mix and match a lot of those. I really like Zhang's Allicin, houttuynia, artemisinin, oil of oregano, etc...

At the moment I'm off abx, and I'm currently trying out essential oil combos from Tick Slayer, actually seems pretty effective. I'll update more about it after I've used them for a bit longer, I still don't know if they will remain effective or not but for now I'm relatively impressed.

I think if the buhner herbs are ramping up your insomnia that is a sign they are likely effective for your infections. I hope you can find a tolerable dose that allows you to keep treating while giving you enough breathing space that the herxing doesn't overwhelm you. That's always a fine line imo! I know Dr Horowitz emphasizes the importance of sleep for his patients, there might be info in his books on his various strategies/contingencies for helping patients with that. I can look that up if you'd like, just let me know!

doors12
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Date Joined Jul 2006
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   Posted 5/30/2018 12:39 AM (GMT -6)   
Isitlyme

I had a really intense reaction to houttunyia drops. Once i got past 10 drops i could only sleep from like 10p-2a...this went on for months and i had a sort of mental breakdown due to sleep deprivation. I started getting extremely restless, couldnt sit down, pacing all day

I also had a lot of spiritual torment that hit me while i was mentally weak.

I dont believe the posts that suggest dropping doses are good advice etc when it gets to where you sleep 3 hours a night for weeks or months. I had even tried stopping the houttunyia for a solid month and my sleep was still hellish. The bart was pissed off and the houttunyia and sida were not enough in my opinion.

I ended up having to see a psych doc, accidentally got on prozac and abilify which made me worse (though the abilify made my restlessness so severe i was suicidal, it ironically helped a tad with sleep but horrible stuff)

The psych doc had me work up to 5mg lunesta and it didnt have ANY effect on sleep. I tried belsomra,ambien cr (adverse reaction)...nothing helped. Prior to the houtunyia i was sleeping well on one mg lunesta. Finally the psych doc gave me klonopin which really helped stop the restlessness and help me sleep. My sleep was still insufficient however and due to constant eye floaters, mild sore throat, cat scratch rash, i knew that it was still a bartonella flare (not a bart herx) detox had no benefit even my lyme doc agreed.

I talked the lyme doc into 30 days of 250mg azithromycin and my situation finally improved. He just had me up the cats claw as i came off the 30 day azithro. I am guessing the azithro isnt strong enough to eliminate bart or the other gram negative nasty i have on board, but it sure put it back in check- i dont think i would have returned to work without the azithro and the klonopin.


I now take 2mg lunesta and 1mg klonopin, sleep great and drink as much caffeine as i want in the morning. Still on my buhner-esque protocol with alinia twice daily. Feeling great and back to work. Its late and i have to go to bed but i had to log on to tell you and post this because the experience made me suicidal. I hope this is helpful and i will try to check back if you have any other questions.

Now, maybe if i had proper support with klonopin and azithro from the start my houttunyia experience would have been more helpful, but i didnt.

Doors12

doors12
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Date Joined Jul 2006
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   Posted 5/30/2018 12:43 AM (GMT -6)   
Ps i dont think it waz simulating me i think it just stirred the bart up but didnt kill it. Sometimes i really hate the logic of immune boosting to fight infection, the azithro saved my arse
Positive test for lyme disease antibodies, brucella, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, mycoplasma 2015
Pancolitis Ulcerative Colitis (Mild to Moderate) dx in 2006 diagnosis changed to acute infectious colitis 2015
3/2014 heterozygous mthfr
Herbal treatment with addition of Alinia/tinidazole

LJohn23
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 155
   Posted 5/30/2018 12:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Do you think herbal protocols are still effective though? I didn't know cats claw kills bart

sebreg
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   Posted 5/30/2018 1:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Doors12 has a point. You should do trial and error, dropping doses usually helped me for herx issues, but that's not the case for everyone. I'm glad they pointed that out, there rarely are universals when it comes to treating this stuff since there are so many variations and each case has its own unique qualities.

And yes, herbal protocols can be very effective imo. But I've found that just like with abx, whenever I plateau I need to rotate to some new treatments.

LJohn23
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Date Joined Mar 2018
Total Posts : 155
   Posted 5/30/2018 4:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Seberg, what protocols have you plateued on? Did you get up to full dosing on the herbal protocols you have tried?

sebreg
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Date Joined Jun 2015
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   Posted 5/30/2018 4:57 PM (GMT -6)   
Yeah, I went up to full dosing on many of them. I just want to mention that just because it didn't get me to remission doesn't mean it won't get you there. Sometimes it was hard because the herxing was intolerable, and that's when I would have to take breaks and restart at lower levels. This was especially true in the beginning of my treatment.

I pretty much always end up plateauing on protocols, it happens faster now I think because the pathogen load is less but maybe this last part is harder to nail? I don't really know for sure. The one good thing with the herxing is that I can usually tell when something is effective or not based on my body's response.

I think it's smart to do the Buhner protocol. Give it a shot for a while, you can always rotate off to something else if you don't feel you are seeing improvement after some months. It's hard not to be impatient, or to get worried that the treatments aren't working. But the Buhner protocol imo is a good one to try and stick with for a bit. There is also a Buhner facebook group. Are you on that one? that could be a good resource as well.

doors12
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Date Joined Jul 2006
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   Posted 5/30/2018 11:50 PM (GMT -6)   
I wanted to add that the only supplements that have thrown me in the hurt locker that bad were lymeplus transfer factor and houttunyia...you can search my initial posts on the lymeplus which my dr gave me for provocation before testing.

I know transfer factor stimulates the immune system but can anyone confirm houttunyia is immune stimulating or "modulating" (that term is my favorite /sarcasm)

So i will have a duscussion with my dr about how immune stimulating my gram negative infections is NOT good monotherapy for me, whereas the azithro had an immediate calming effect on my bart? Flare

I don't know what cats claw goes after but thats what he has me increasing. He wants me on rifampin now but i dont see how i can start that one unless i get settled into medicaid and a "van down on the river" as chris farley would say...lol

Doors12
Positive test for lyme disease antibodies, brucella, babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, mycoplasma 2015
Pancolitis Ulcerative Colitis (Mild to Moderate) dx in 2006 diagnosis changed to acute infectious colitis 2015
3/2014 heterozygous mthfr
Herbal treatment with addition of Alinia/tinidazole
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