New member microscope questions?

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DonN
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Date Joined Jul 2018
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   Posted 7/10/2018 4:39 PM (GMT -6)   
My first post. I've battled Lyme for 30 yrs. An avid outdoorsman and have pulled hundreds of ticks out of my skin. My GP ran a western 6 months ago which came back positive. I've been on the buhner protocol for about 3 months and am not house bound anymoresmile Anyway I've been monitoring my blood by microscopy and it's crawling with spirochetes. My wife has no symptoms of Lyme but she does have spirochetes. My children do not. Is it common to find spirochetes in the blood? She does not have syphilis or periodontal disease.

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 7/10/2018 5:31 PM (GMT -6)   
Do you have a picture you can post? You should not be finding spirochetes in healthy blood but some people mistake things for spirochetes that aren't. A picture or video would be helpful I think

Noah2112
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   Posted 7/10/2018 5:41 PM (GMT -6)   
If it were that easy to find the spirochetes in the blood, we wouldn't be having trouble diagnosing people properly. You're probably mistaking them for something else, if your wife doesn't have any symptoms she's probably alright.

bluelyme
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   Posted 7/10/2018 7:46 PM (GMT -6)   
ummm noah ......it is easy , the swede doc on under our skin said so , and so do all of the microscrope group on lymenet flash and alan macdonald and eva sapi ,thank god ...look there for info on how to do a smear , you can view them easily in lysed rbc with a simple lightfield microscope at 1000x or better(phase is nice darkfield ok too) ...optics go a long way ...used ameriacan of japonese is better than new india scope imo....i can also stain for babs and bart using a quik giemsa like the universities do its super easy and super easy to see. doctors used to have scopes in their office when i was a kid ...ins. corp. make them use 1 0f 2 labs now ...they look for immune markers not actual bacteria ...dudefromks was culturing his lyme/ms ketes in rabbit bsk serum in about 3 weeks ...at hospital they only do 3 day culture...looking for strep staph etc ...

what kind of scope u using donj?
spirochetes may not be causing immune response but hey are not nice bacteria , were seeing 9 of 10 peoples blood have spirochetes ...its a pandemic. i do not share food drink with my children and only have protected sex with my partner once treated or its all for not ....

see mustardseeds new to microscopy thread here its very thorough

Post Edited (bluelyme) : 7/10/2018 6:53:16 PM (GMT-6)


DonN
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   Posted 7/10/2018 8:26 PM (GMT -6)   
I'll see if I can get a picture. So far I've just been making videos. Their definitely spirochetes. I'm viewing them under 2000x. I've video'd one over a 32 hr. period coming out of the cell. She doesn't have very many. You have to hunt for them. Unlike mine that are everywhere. She went through a very bad illness several yrs ago and the hospital never found out what was wrong, after about a year she overcame it. We live in the country and ticks are everywhere. I was just curious if some people carry the bacteria and are not symptomatic. I'll try to post some pictures

Healing98
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   Posted 7/10/2018 9:02 PM (GMT -6)   
"if some people carry the bacteria and are not symptomatic." Yes, some people can carry the bacteria and not have any symptoms. It depends on how strong the person's immune system is and how healthy the body is. Someone who is a heavy drinker, smoker, poor eater will have symptoms sooner after infection because the body is already taxed by all the toxins and poor lifestyle.

Another thing to consider is that some people's DNA/genes(?) is more effective at fending off illnesses.

I was given a Nikon microscope that is in like new condition but I haven't used it because I don't know what to look for, or even how to prepare a sample.

DonN
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Date Joined Jul 2018
Total Posts : 60
   Posted 7/10/2018 9:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Well....I figured out how to take still photos but I dont know how to upload them. I hit the img button but nothing happens.
I've watched a ton of videos on microscope set up and then just started looking for them, its a little addictive.

Girlie
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   Posted 7/10/2018 11:06 PM (GMT -6)   
DonN said...
Well....I figured out how to take still photos but I dont know how to upload them. I hit the img button but nothing happens.
I've watched a ton of videos on microscope set up and then just started looking for them, its a little addictive.


You need to use a photo site: Photobucket or Tinypic.com

You load your photos on there and post a link here.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 7/11/2018 3:55 AM (GMT -6)   
I don't know that we can clearly state there are asymptomatic carriers. However, in general, it is very common with microbiologic diseases.

Anyways I agree with Noah. Spirochetes tend to locate in the perivascular space and only transiently infect the blood. I have seen some pretty convincing videos of live blood. I have also seen all manner of fibrous substances being called spirochetes which could in no way be properly identified. I don't like to be argumentative with patients but unless those things can be tagged with a DNA probe I hate to jump to conclusions.

bluelyme
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   Posted 7/11/2018 4:52 AM (GMT -6)   
healing - nikons are sweet like paul simon says here is lymed2010 vid of how to make a smear
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ1scQdbmtg

psilo- theoretically sure but realistically spirochetes live replicate and drill any where they darn well please .leave a slide out under the lamp for 30 min the next time your in lab then look...

don - some use slr but seen some good 4k phone stuff. even hd webcam

this is dudefromks recent video ,/www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A3T2uKP4HQ culture in bsk medium maybe

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 7/11/2018 5:26 AM (GMT -6)   
I've left them out for a few minutes, for hours for days. This isn't just theoretical. This is what research, to my knowledge, has shown. Spirochetes largely seek out immune priveledged tissues like connective tissue which is pretty much everywhere. Even then they can be difficult to find. I'm not saying they're never in the blood. But given what we know about their biology I don't agree with liberally declaring any fibrous structure in blood a spirochete. Like I said, I've seen some very very clear photos and videos of spirochetes people have posted. But I've also seen some questionable ones which is why I think a picture would help

DonN
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Date Joined Jul 2018
Total Posts : 60
   Posted 7/11/2018 7:48 AM (GMT -6)   
I put a couple of Video's up. Take a look for me please. These video's were made where the blood Plasma is trapped. In other words, there is no flowing Plasma to cause movement. Everything moving is alive thats moving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s21SS4Qup70

Post Edited (DonN) : 7/11/2018 7:14:30 AM (GMT-6)


Missouri
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Date Joined Sep 2017
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   Posted 7/11/2018 8:41 AM (GMT -6)   
sure looks like a spirochete to me. about 1/2 way up and 2/3 the way over from the left, correct?

I am below novice level in microscopy. Can you tell me what type of microscope you are using. I am super interested in trying.

Post Edited (Missouri) : 7/11/2018 12:25:31 PM (GMT-6)


DonN
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Date Joined Jul 2018
Total Posts : 60
   Posted 7/11/2018 8:53 AM (GMT -6)   
I bought a used Amscope 120. It comes with a camera. My next venture will be a dark field condenser. The Spirochetes are translucent, the light passes through them. You can barely make out the spiral shape on a few of them. What I have found from my observation is the spirochetes become very observable after several hrs. I videod one for 32 hrs and recorded it leaving the cell. Once it left the cell, the cell was completely ghosted.
(Void of any color)

bluelyme
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   Posted 7/11/2018 12:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Nice work ...there are a few abborhations on your lens or camera but that is definitely a kete
als /ms dx muscle wasting, vasculitis, vertigo etc etc
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Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 7/11/2018 1:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for posting. Unfortunately it's too fuzzy to really tell. But assuming you can see it better in real life, if it has the defined spirals then it could be a spirochete. Otherwise I'd be wary.

That said... asymptomatic borreliosis isn't really something that has been explored well. Syphilis frequently goes asymptomatic for decades and relapsing fever diseases have alternating symptomatic and asymptomatic periods. So it's definitely within the realm of possibilities that her illness was some sort of spirochetal disease that went dormant. I wouldn't expect it to just sort of be out in "broad daylight" like that. A spirochete in the blood seems prime to drive an inflammatory response, but i suppose it could happen. I would probably not treat it though. Whatever delicate balance it has found is better left undisturbed unless symptoms start up again or some other secondary illness (cancer, dementia, etc) occurs. But there's no protocol for this... just spitting my opinion. If you can throw antibiotics at these things all day and not make a dent in someone who's sick, why do it to someone who's not sick. Just my two cents

Girlie
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   Posted 7/11/2018 2:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Noah2112 said...
If it were that easy to find the spirochetes in the blood, we wouldn't be having trouble diagnosing people properly. You're probably mistaking them for something else, if your wife doesn't have any symptoms she's probably alright.


I wonder the same thing as you do, Noah. If it can be visualized in a blood sample under microscope - why isn't it being done to diagnose?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
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   Posted 7/11/2018 2:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Noah2112 said...
If it were that easy to find the spirochetes in the blood, we wouldn't be having trouble diagnosing people properly. You're probably mistaking them for something else, if your wife doesn't have any symptoms she's probably alright.


I wonder the same thing as you do, Noah. If it can be visualized in a blood sample under microscope - why isn't it being done to diagnose?


I'm sure there's a really complicated discussion behind that which is partly embedded in the fact, as i stated before, spirochetes are serophobic for the most part... but also partly embedded in the fact that medicine is so highly commoditized nobody is getting paid to sit around and spend hours poking for a spirochete in a blood slide. Everything is about efficiency these days. Not applying all the tools at your disposal, but producing rapid, cheap and standardized diagnostics that can push a higher volume of patients through the system at the expense of individualized care.

But yeah if it was obvious or easy to diagnose by blood slide it wouldn't go unnoticed this long. There are too many pathologists out there pushing a large volume of patient samples and spirochetes are not the kinds of things you overlook when they're in their classic spirilla morphology. They stick out like a sore thumb.

Missouri
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Date Joined Sep 2017
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   Posted 7/11/2018 2:42 PM (GMT -6)   
I have read what I believe to be published credible scientific papers on microscopy and diagnosis. They really did make it sound like you can see Borrelia pretty easily with a fairly low-grade microscope.

I think the diagnosis problem goes back to the CDC / IDSA who claim that only B. Burgdorferi. is harmful and all other Borrelia's are harmless in the US. This obviously isn't true, and is rapidly being disproven - see Borrelia Mayoni, Borrelia Andersoni, etc...

As of right now, I believe the CDC / IDSA claim that Borrelia Lonestari was thoroughly investigated and was found to be harmless.

they also seem to claim that we have no Borrelia Garnii or Borrelia Afzelii in the US- I find both positions very hard to believe.

I do not think you can tell the difference under the microscope between different Borrelia's. You would need the microscopy plus genetic markers like mentioned above to "prove" it is what you think you see actually is; and then "prove" what it is - is considered "pathogenic" by the medical establishment.

Post Edited (Missouri) : 7/11/2018 2:57:03 PM (GMT-6)


Psilociraptor
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   Posted 7/11/2018 3:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Missouri what study was that? You can see it easily when it's there, it's a question of whether it's there. Here's a cool video of the pathogen in a living mouse. You can see the blood vessel. Every once in a while a spirochete zips by at lightening speed. But as you can see the vast majority of them are in the connective tissue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THwcT1rjNXQ

I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general this is a pretty basic evasion strategy as most of the host defenses are circulating in the blood and it's considerably more difficult to mobilize immune cells into connective tissue. Hopefully these kinds of live microscopy will become more popular and advanced. Really helps remove some of the ambiguity when you can literally visualize a fluorescent bacteria. Of course... this is in mice... so maybe people are different. But Embers found the same thing in Macaques and as far as I know that's kind of the accepted position.

Missouri
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Date Joined Sep 2017
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   Posted 7/11/2018 3:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Start here:

https://on-lyme.org/en/sufferers/lyme-stories/item/276-interview-with-professor-laane-about-the-suppression-of-microscopy-for-lyme-diagnostics

then read:

After publishing the 2013 article ‘A simple method for the detection of live Borrelia spirochetes in human blood using classical microscopy techniques’, professor Laane was invited to give a lecture at the 2014 Norvect conference in Oslo. An English patient saved the pdf, so you can still read it, via the link provided.


I realize I am no microbiologist. I do not even own a microscope. I am however, skeptical natured, and still found the material pretty convincing.

I also usually find your posts and references pretty convincing too . LOL

I am very curious your take on the material

Post Edited (Missouri) : 7/11/2018 3:22:43 PM (GMT-6)


DonN
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   Posted 7/11/2018 4:59 PM (GMT -6)   
There is no way I can prove these spirochetes are borrelia. I've had the ticks, the migrans rash and a western blot positive. My physician has diagnosed me with chronic lyme. What I have seen through the microscope is a spirochete break up in several little sections and the blobs or blebs start swimming in different directions. At first I thought it was cell degeneration, but then I began to find places in the blood smear where the cells were trapped and there was no plasma flow. Here's a video of one. about 3/4 of the way through I inhanced the hue on the bright field so you can see them better

https://youtu.be/Yk4Oz8HP4rI

Missouri
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   Posted 7/12/2018 8:20 AM (GMT -6)   
Fascinating! Someone would be hard pressed to convince me that whatever was wriggling around in that video is not a microbe. Looks like a spirochete to me too, but hard to tell, and I am total microscopy novice.

I hope Psilociraptor is on the case. I am totally intrigued and will be buying a microscope soon.

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 7/12/2018 12:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Lol I'm no pathologist (yet). I'm actually busy applying for med school right now so that hopefully one day I can be and so I don't have time to fully digest this topic at the moment. Just sharing what I know from past readings. I'm not totally ruling out the possibility, i just think it's difficult for inexperienced people like us to make that kind of judgement call with out more specific tests. The motion of those filaments is more consistent with brownian motion than live movement. If you've ever made slides of body fluids you'll see all kinds of stuff bumbling around like that and it just has to do with their small mass being bombarded with energetic particles. By contrast a motile spirochete is incredible agile and tends to move much more like an animal. With a sense of intentionality and clear direction. Now, not all bacteria are motile. Some just bumble around in brownian motion. And even spirochetes can become nonmotile. So that's not evidence this ISN'T a spirochete. I'm just saying don't confuse brownian motion for live motion. A nonliving filament of the same size will likely act the same way. Based on that there is no way to really distinguish the two without something like a FISH test.

DonN
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   Posted 7/12/2018 12:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks very much for the answers. This is new territory for me (not the suffering). I'm a Pastor not a Pathologist smile I tried Culturing my blood in gelatin,
After 7 days I took a drop of the top and put it under a darkfield. No blood cells or plasma to interfere with the field. Under darkfield I counted about 8 spirochetes, they're super fast and you can definitely see them spiraling across the slide.
I doubt they cultured. I think they outlived the cells.
I will post if I can get a darkfield video of them.
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