Serrapatese-Nattokinase Mix: Herx means Lyme or co is active?

If you herx on serrapatese or nattokinase, does that mean there is still an active component of Lyme or co-infections going?

Trying to determine what is what with symptoms.

My guess would be ‘maybe yes’ but it could be other things too. I just started taking serrapeptase today as well to see how much it stirs up.

Last time I tried this it was too much and I put it aside.

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Bullseye rash August 2013. Following Buhner's protocol for Borrelia, Babesia and Bartonella since July 2017

I take a combination with 129 mg of natto and 33 mg of serra. Started back about two weeks ago once a day and have noticed I get an anxiety feeling and a bit foggy not long after for about an hour or so.

Astroman's use for it is also a benefit I've read a lot about. It is supposed to help with blood pressure, but I am trying to break up biofilm. If I remember correctly, one of them helps with cysts? When you tried it before and it was "too much," what symptoms did it cause, sandyfeet?

Thanks for the warning Astro, a number of herbs can thin blood as well (I’d have to check which ones as I haven’t thought about it in a while).

As for my experience last time I just started having more of those tingling sensations at night which I think of (perhaps over imaginatively) as active lyme on the move. It went away once I stopped taking it.

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Bullseye rash August 2013. Following Buhner's protocol for Borrelia, Babesia and Bartonella since July 2017

13 Benefits of Serrapeptase:
https://selfhacked.com/blog/health-benefits-serrapeptase/

This is interesting. After taking two serra and two natto, and monularine I seem to be more:
1) lose/limber (although fit, my body is beat)
and
2) my calf's have better circulation even after sitting around all day. Zero calf edema, even though a fit person should NOT have any edema anyway, which has weirded me out the last few months as this got worse.

No herxing of any type, my sniffles from this morning have gone away.

The above can be both related and separate in cause. I think i'll continue two capsules each everyday and monitor: pain / stiffness, circulation (feel and visual), blood pressure and blood sugar. Once I get a feel of what both feel like then ill switch to just one then the other to try and figure out which one relieves what.

I wish I could find a alternative Dr who understood circulation better.. Conventional drs just look at lipids (mine are fine) and figure you are at stroke level or you aren't, they ignore the middle like usual.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/26/2019 11:13:41 PM (GMT-7)

Japanese knotweed is a blood thinner.

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Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

sandyfeet said...
Thanks for the warning Astro, a number of herbs can thin blood as well (I’d have to check which ones as I haven’t thought about it in a while).

As for my experience last time I just started having more of those tingling sensations at night which I think of (perhaps over imaginatively) as active lyme on the move. It went away once I stopped taking it.

astroman said...

That might actually be a good thing though. Maybe its just the cleansing action you were feeling.

Serra and natto are probably the two most powerful enzymes there.

Maybe, but those buzzy electrical type feelings always freak me out. It’s why I finally looked into lyme and started treating. I’m definitely in for low and slow with the herbal treatment lol.

I’m very much looking forward to introducing this at some point as it sounds quite beneficial in general. I’m not looking to break down biofilms so much as many of the herbs do this slowly anyway. Although I was/am hoping to use a biofilm breaker as a way to gauge my recovery.

When I tried it before that was around the time when my CD57 was extremely low so I might not have been well enough to take any extra load. I haven’t had a chance to test that again yet but my c4a was good so I’m taking that (along with how I’m feeling) as a sign I may be stronger. Fingers crossed I’m not just making all this up ;-)

Please do post with your experiences with this as you get further in.

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Bullseye rash August 2013. Following Buhner's protocol for Borrelia, Babesia and Bartonella since July 2017

From what I have read, serrapeptase also has antibiotic qualities, which might explain your reaction to it without antibiotics.

Lumbro and seŕra always seem to breakbup biofilm . And cause more of the same ol symptoms. Unless i had a strong enough killing agent in my bloodstream concurrently. ...

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als /ms dx muscle wasting, vasculitis, vertigo etc etc
bvt began 11/15,
smartport install 5/16
1.25 yrs pulsed roceph with zith riffy alinia
,pk and supportive ivs
9 mo zhang bart tx
9+ month dr franz rife,
various parasite protocols iver/ herbal
from bed bound on o2 to keeping up with 5yo kiddo,
2 startups, + pt certified practicing apitherapist

astroman said...
lots of info..........

from this E book: ".........................A: I strongly recommend BlockBusterAllClear. This has Serrapeptase and Nattokinase™, as well as other enzymes and Pycnogenol, to help get your cardio system healthy. Nattokinase™ will dissolve blood clots, whereas Warfarin just stops clots forming. There is no interaction between them as they
do different jobs."

Interesting and contradictory to another quote I copied/posted. At least this tell why, unlike Warfarin, Natto is not a thinner. Good to know.

Here's something I just remembered from the website of an enzyme product (Zymessence) I've previously used:

"Comparision Question #2: Nattokinase: On products that tout they have nattokinase and on how great nattokinase is; why does Zymessence® not have nattokinase?

Point #2) Dr. Wong HATES nattokinase. Of all the proteolytic enzymes it is the only one that does not have a feedback mechanism to let it know when to stop lysing, (i.e. eating) blood proteins.

In nature nattokinase is always found with Vitamin K1 and that prevents the blood from becoming overly thin when eating the natto curd and taking in the nattokinase enzyme. When the nattokinase is extracted from that curd, the Vitamin K is left behind. So, of all the proteolytic enzymes it is the one most likely to create the danger of overly thin blood and cause hemorrhagic bleeding issues. We've spoken to two docs, one of whom is a very famous alternative doc, who got both themselves and their patients in bleeding trouble by using what were modest dosing levels of nattokinase.

Though nattokinase is highly touted by health food industry hype, the Handbook of Proteolytic Enzymes tells us that nattokinase does not do anything that the serrapeptidase, trypsin, chymotrypsin or papain does not do, including clearing the excess fibrin and adhesion molecules as well as lysing away arterial plaque. In terms of fibrinolysis, nattokinase and serrapeptidase are nearly equal with the serrapeptidase having a slight advantage. Another advantage of using serrapeptidase and the other enzymes is they are considerably safer at doing that job than the nattokinase."

Source: https://drwongsessentials.com/zymessence-compared

I've also used a proteolytic enzyme called "pHi-Zymes" that does use nattokinase:

https://www.baselinenutritionals.com/phi-zymes-90.php
https://jonbarron.org/article/proteolytic-enzyme-formula

Since I've stopped supplementation (with the exception of low-dose, extended-release melatonin), it's been nice to not have to think much about this stuff!

The Dude Abides said...

Since I've stopped supplementation (with the exception of low-dose, extended-release melatonin), it's been nice to not have to think much about this stuff!

I hear you. I am so tired of thinking about some of this stuff! I’ve been slowly condensing my protocol and the mental space as well as the space in my cabinet is really nice.

I definitely appreciate everything I’ve learned about taking control of my own health. That is one of the gifts I take from all this lyme crap.

My grandparents were blessed with good health and long life despite not being particularly health conscious. I’ve always put that down to the fact that they grew up thinking turnips were sweet lol (one grand parent made it into his 90s despite living with malaria since WWII).

My parents were much more health conscious. I guess I’ve been lucky both with genes and a sense that I can take charge of my own health.

I’ve always been careful around the risks of supplements though. What we know about them is constantly changing and as we learn more about genetics it becomes increasingly clear how complicated it is.

I guess another thing I deeply appreciate going through this lyme journey is that as much as I feel empowered to improve my health if I want I also know how to appreciate good enough. I have a long way to go still but good days (despite being a far cry from before I was sick) sure are sweet.

It’s one of the things that distinguishes people on this list from many I know irl but I’ve always had a hard time understanding people who don’t see their health as something they can manage and improve in one way or another.

Post Edited (sandyfeet) : 1/27/2019 5:33:39 PM (GMT-7)

runningwild - what was your gfr years prior to your lyme diagnosis?

If kidney function (gfr) is showing stage 3 ( less than 60) more than once - it should have definitely been looked into - ie more tests, specialist, imaging... etc.

I’m sorry you had such subpar treatment from your Doc.

The elderly lady I help with errands has a lower gfr - and it is monitored closely.... diet suggestions, medications closely monitored and regular tests done ... etc.

It’s criminal that they didn’t pay attention to your kidney tests.


My doc looked into everything that was awry on my test results - she didn’t clue in to lyme - but she at least tried to help me - specialists, imaging ...tests and retests...etc.

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Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi