Ooo Charlie55 was here! Hey, I love reading your posts and the links as well.
Funny how the forum will be moderately active, then you come in like a tornado and whip up all of this great discussion!
Appreciate that potsnpans...
The risk of using disulfiram alone is that is doesn't kill bartonella. That's quite a lot of drugs for bart tho.
Yes, you're exactly right!
I thought I had expanded on this in my post above, but I must of forgot to, as I made a response building up to it, but didn't quite explain how disulfiram will probably have to be rotated for some lyme patients. I made a lot of posts on Facebook yesterday in a similar fashion, I should of got more in-depth on disulfiram and bartonella in my post above. I really suspect some will have to stop disulfiram, so other specific drugs can be used to target drug resistant strains of bartonella. What do they say, up to 29 different strains of bartonella, I suspect certain strains of bartonella are different just like Babesia, hence Babesia duncani, very hard to kill and may need a special persister cell drug to eradicate the pathogen to put it into remission.
But remember, disulfiram not only targets borrelia persister cells and kills them, but it also wakes up dormant viruses, bacteria, and parasites. So I suspect it will be good for waking up these coinfections and making them much more susceptible to drugs. That's what the article explained is the major problem with AIDs virus, dormant virus cells that hide out within deep parts of body and make it almost impossible to eradicate, so any chance AIDs patients contract a common cold, they end up relapsing and the dormant cells just keep replicating.
What does Bartonella do, it can also lay dormant. And so does borrelia, both borrelia and bartonella have dormant persister cells... Babesia is a little different and I suspect can be the dominant infection for many lyme patients, however, like what I've theorized about
before, even a couple of other members talked about
it on LymeNet.org, they suspect that certain form of Babesia could lay dormant in the liver just like Malaria. If you look up "hypnozoites" and "malaria," you'll see that there's certain strains of Malaria that are basically hide out in the liver and are untouchable to any of the antiparasitic drug on the market, except primaquine and the new one tafenoquine. Again, just a theory, as babesia is very similar to malaria, what if that explains why Babesia duncani is so drug resistant?
Bartonella also seems to have a connection to dormancy in the liver as well, a lot of patients with Bartonella have high liver enzymes, so do Babesia patients. But here's the thing, Bartonella is a whole different beast together, it's not a spirochete or a parasite, it belongs to a different bacteria family called the proteobacterium phylum and acts differently.
minocycline seems to just release bartonella from cysts without killing it.
And by the way, I'm not sure where you've read it roles up into cyst/round body form Quin, I think spirochetes just do that... After doing lot of research, it seems basically Bartonella likes to hide out in red blood cells like babesia, the liver, and possibly the thyroid and brain, which borrelia also does, but again, different bacteria family so it will need probably a different antibiotic. https://youtu.be/bzu0weofvm8?t=5980
And as I suspect for a lot of patients knocking back babesia with the right antiparasitic drugs and herbs will make it a lot easier to fight bartonella, it probably won't work for everyone. As I shared this link up above, like Dr. H said in the video, this woman was on every bartonella antibiotic and nothing worked. It wasn't until she tried the tuberculosis persister cell drug pyrazinamide, that's when her immune system responded and her bartonella blood test came back positive, meanwhile every antibiotic she took before never worked and her bartonella test always remained negative.
You know I suspect that a three drug combination like bactrim, rifampin, and minocycline targets all three different areas where bartonella likes to hide out at like the brain, red blood cells, and liver. But it still may not be enough to wake up or kill the dormant persister cells, that's where using something like pyrazinamide may come into play or just rotating disulfiram with these antibiotics to wak up the dormant forms of bartonella and make them vulnerable.https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4149462https://youtu.be/tgjjtdapfdi?t=912
For whatever reason, that iodine really really pissed off my bartonella and woke it up permanently for me. Now is that because bartonella likes to hide out in the thyroid? If you read my seperate post up above and then consider the tie between bartonella and the thyroid, the connection Dr. Evan Hirsch makes in the video, why Bartonella likes to target the thyroid, because of the incredible blood supply in the thyroid. Before bartonella treatment, his chronic lyme patients thyroid antibodies were up, when they started to treat with A-Bart, the thyroid antibodies started to go down. So this may explain why something like iodine really activated my bartonella for me and remind you, I was also on A-Bab and CSA Formula, which also has herbs that targets bartonella... And iodine being an old school remedy for killing a bacterial skin infection, could be a good supplement to try for bartonella or at least some strains of bartonella. Iodine also wakes up the thyroid into produces hormones, which also is connected to the immune system, so it overall could of just woke up my body's immune system as well.
And as Better Health stated, the thyroid is one of the things that a lot of people do not talk about
in the connection between Bartonella and Thyroid. The thyroid really goes overlooked and not treated by many Lyme Literate Doctors as well!
Charlie - I cannot tolerate iodine. I have it in my food - I eat a lot of fish. But I cannot and do not supplement it.
jb1994 you still think I'm on Iodine while treating bartonella? lol I became so hyper, with anxiety and agitative state, I had to quit it completely, I only took it for a short while, and now I'm on just bactrim, minocycline, omnicef and houttuynia. But I'll say this, since taking kelp and selenium, it woke up my thyroid, my adrenals and my energy levels have been great ever since. I'm out running, thinking better. When I lift weights, I get a better pump in my muscles.
I suspect that bartonella has a big connection to the thyroid, but I suspect Iodine isn't for everyone. If you're labwork is showing high thyroid antibodies or have Hashimotos, last thing you would want to do is use Iodine, as your immune system could destroy your thyroid. I think a better option would be taking a thyroid pill if you're in the earlier stages of treating lyme when your autoimmunity/inflammation is really bad, it's safer option. Overall though, I think that raising thyroid hormone levels with a thyroid pill can extremely help treat both babesia and bartonella effectively, even if it's just armour or np thyroid.
And I suspect for some lyme patients that think they just went hyperthyroid when taking iodine or a thyroid pill, they could just be agitating bartonella in the thyroid. However, I do think many lyme patients actually have Hashimotos and Graves Disease. So they could still be alternating between hypo and hyper thyroid state sometimes. You have to look at your thyroid antibodies, look at where your thyroid levels are, and also differentiate the specific bartonella symptoms from Graves/Hyperthyroid State. Like are you getting electrical shocks in your feet, are your feet sore? Do you have the stretch marks, those red dots, even numbing and pins/needles in your hands and ankles which bartonella can cause, red burning eyes and eye floaters. Some specific symptoms of bartonella have no relation to Graves Disease, especially those darn stretch marks.... But here's the thing, what if a lot, I mean a lot of cat owners that actually have Graves and Hashimotos, is a direct result of Bartonella...? Gets you thinking....
I cannot detox it properly and it ends up getting stored in my tissues and unused. Iodine shouldn't be used if you have detox problems because it will pull out halides and recirculate them.
Yes, I have that problem too, being stored in the tissue, I only took it for a bout 3-4 weeks, but it was enough to boost my thyroid hormones, increase my immune system and I suspect wake up the dormant bartonella. And I suspect primaquine/coartem protocol, weakened babesia and brought out bartonella as well, but I just suspect CSA Formula/A-Bab/Iodine/Selenium was the kicker.
Also when the iodine was being stored in my tissues, I noticed when i felt the iodine settle in the tissues near my ankles and feet, that's when a whole slew of twitching, electric shocks, and herxing started happening in my body.
Iodine shouldn't be used if you have detox problems because it will pull out halides and recirculate them.
So what I'm getting at, it may not be recirculating the toxins like what you think, Iodine may just be causing herxing for you. Of course major detoxing is a must, lots of water, epson salt baths, etc... After a week of herxing from iodine, I felt incredible the following weeks. Remember, you can always buy a pill splitter and cut your kelp or iodine pills in a 1/4, start off really small portions of Iodine.
Years, I mean years ago, when I tried minocycline, I couldn't tolerate it not one bit because of the herxing in my head and dizziness/vertigo. It was just too unbearable, I thought it was the side effect from minocycline, nope, most of all of it was herxing toxins. Now after 8 years of chronic lyme treatment with antibiotics and herbs, I can now tolerate minocycline, and it's helping with my neurobartonellosis.
Again though, iodine isn't for everyone, especially if you're older in age and Hashimotos or Graves may be set in permanently, I suspect that happens. But I wouldn't entirely give up on it, as you heal your gut, your body, inflammation goes down, along with autoimmunity, I think your body will tolerate it better years down the road. Just like food allergies go away... etc...
And again, there's some LLMDs who think that bartonella is directly tied to suppressing the thyroid because it likes the blood flow, so you may want to try a thyroid pill as an alternative to increase your thyroid levels and wake up your body and immune system. Thyroid is connected to a lot, I mean a lot of things to your overall health of your body.
While the jury is still out on how effective DSF is for Bart knocking out Lyme and babesia should give the immune system more power to subdue Bart.
I agree and suspect that too, and like I said above, wake up the dormant cells that may be hiding.
I’m a strong believer that Bart is the main infection and most have it and don’t even know it but you being Lyme in and it becomes a force to be reckoned with.
I think they're all a force to be reckoned with, but I'll say this, when Bartonella pops up, it's as if Zeus is releasing the Kraken inside your body. https://youtu.be/38ayengjqg0?t=37
I think 3 antibiotics are a must to treat this coinfection, probably starting off with two for the first month, then if you have a drug resistant form of bartonella, using pyrazinamide needs to be an option LLMDs are willing to try or rotate between the 3 antbiotics like rifampin, bactrim, mino and disulfiram. And of course not forgetting some of the herbs like Sida Acuta or Houttuynia... And I suspect the problem will be with just trying bartonella with herbs, is getting past the blood brain barrier, and yeah, highly doubtful japanese knotweed will be enough.
I got this (especially the high blood pressure) from flagyl, which makes me a bit hesitant to try disulfiram.
Quin that could just be Bartonella surfacing, Flagyl is an antiparasitic and hits Babesia, for many, once they start hitting Babesia, their Bartonella symptoms start surfacing, my Bartonella symptoms started surfacing when I was using Disulfiram. Like I told the lyme patient on Facebook, high blood pressure doesn't seem to be a main side effect of disulfiram, probably not of flagyl either. But if you look up bartonella and high blood pressure, even heart racing, it's a main symptom of bartonella. Bartonella herxing in general can raise blood pressure and make your heart race...
There was a few comments by lyme patients on buhner's website that remarked about
the high blood pressure is caused by bartonella systemic infection, the blood vessels are hugely impacted and the hearth muscle too, the infection is in the inner linning of the blood vessels.
Study Case 2 on Bartonella Patient https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2100128/
blood pressure instability
Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/9/2019 4:08:08 AM (GMT-6)