I am sorry you feel this way, I am speaking as someone who's been fairly sick and tried the "only herbs route" and learned in the process, more about Buhner, and simply shared that I'm skeptical about him based on his background and a protocol that I tried similar to the one he's espousing.
"Endless negative comments about herbs." I feel that is inaccurate, as I'm only exclusively on herbs right now, due to another medical hurdle I have to go through that abx would exacerbate. When I am on abx, I also am not exclusively on those either, I take herbs with them. I don't feel like you can well without either.
ElizKA26, here's my thoughts on solely using herbs, especially in the beginning stages of treating chronic lyme. If you're body is so far gone, meaning your immune system is so weakened by borrelia, coinfections, virues, and biofilms. How would ever one expect that just a 2 or 3 herb combo would get your body back to functioning state? And I suspect this can be a major problem using RSO oil for cancer. I mean I'm sure everyone's body is different and it's still possible, but for most, it's a very risky chance of just counting on herbs in the beginning. As I explained, problem isn't that herbs don't work, it's the matter of bioavailability, penetration, crossing the blood brain barrier. I've heard some herbalistis and people think that just by using the blushwood berry plant that they were going to cure their malignant tumors by just supplementing with it. People still don't understand the blushwood berry in supplement powder form just isn't the same thing as the actual drug EBC-46 drug which cured some patients malignant tumors within 24 hours. Just like how the supplemental form of artemisinin you can buy on Amazon isn't as strong as Artesunate and Coartem. And like some LLMDs are suggesting, using the supplemental form of artemisinin may be doing more damage than good, because it could be just making your babesia more resistant instead of just taking artesunate.
I get a lot of points some pro-herbalist members make on the forum, not everyone can afford a LLMD or longterm antibiotics. But honestly, if you're in the beginning stages and you feel you're so far gone, and even for some close to death, I think it's risky, very risky to just solely use herbs. And just counting on all your information coming from one person who hasn't graduated high school?
That's risky as well...
Again, Buhner is very smart in his own right and made some very good discoverings on what herb works with what coinfection like Babesia. And for something like Babesia, there's not a lot of options out there that work very well on this parasite and it's starting to become very resistant to mepron/malarone. But counting on just a 2-3 herbs to eradicate an multisystemic infection when some patients may too far gone because of a weekened immune system sounds very dangerous to me and I think it's a bit dangerous that a lyme patient comes on here thinking that Stephen Buhner is hinting to you won't get better being on longterm antibiotics, this is absolute hogwash. Is he actually saying or suggesting that in his books Upatnite?
I stopped reading because I starting feeling like all the antibiotics I’m using are a big waste of time. I hate that. My daughter is much better because of them and her dr who uses both herbs and antibiotics has said he strongly feels my daughter needs the antibiotics and likely will keep her on them a long time.
I know we are all biased naturally when we find something that works. And when we find that thing... whatever it is... we want to spread the word and share what we’ve learned. I love that and it’s why I’m a member on this forum. But for god sake... can someone please tell me that antibiotics can and do help some people beat this thing. Any long term antibiotic users find success?
It's very scary to me, because we have visual proof right off the bat that antibiotics work just from the Under Our Skin Documentaries.
All of them used antibiotics and they all got better, many reaching remission like Mandy Hughes. The one patient that seemed to be still in a very weakened and painful state was Dana Walsh, who seemed to be solely counting on alternative treatment from Dr. K and herbs.
And ya know from my own personal experience just recently, after I hammered my Babesia back with primaquine and coartem, then also artesunate and alinia as well, then followed up with csa formula/a-bab and iodine, but then Bartonella popped up. After trying to hammer Bartonella back with just herbs for 2 months, guess what, it wasn't working... Cats Claw, Teasel, Houttuynia and Sida Acuta weren't strong enough no matter what I did. Then I got on Bactrim and Omnicef, I got instant relief. Then added in Minocycline for my bartonella neurological symptoms, I got even more relief because Mino crosses the blood barrier.
Again, I think herbs have their use, but if you're just using them solely to treat this multisystemic chronic infection that's super hard to cure and you're counting solely on Stephen Buhner's advice, I think you're playing with fire, especially with something like Bartonella. And what did Buhner say, patients don't herx on Bartonella? Ummm, yeah he's definitely wrong on that...
I'm sure Buhner makes some fair points how overuse and longterm of antibiotics can wreak havoc on the microbiome and can be toxic to the body, liver and kidneys. As well as other points he probably makes... But as long as you're incorporating plenty of yogurt, kefir, and probiotics and detoxing properly with alpha lipoic, acid, plenty of water, baths, cbd oil... You'll be fine. They've also just discovered that fecal matter transplants have basically cured C-Diff if you're worried about
that, problem is not all the darn hospitals have implemented into their system yet...
Anyways ElizKA26, I'm glad you tried his protocol, and was willing to share your opinion on the forum because as you see some don't want to hear other peoples opinions. It's just like some don't want to hear biological warfare side of Lyme... Everyone lives in their own little bubble and belief system... If you want to choose herbs and just faith, fine, that's you're right, but don't try to expect others to conform to your belief system and not share their opinions of Stephen Buhner and his protocol.
Again, I'll share my story once more... I recently went in to a more herbalistic osteopath doctor in Michigan to check on my vitamin levels, my thyroid levels... As I was having some new weird symptoms come out after doing iodine/csaformula/a-bab and primaquine/coartem months ago. The guy didn't even to know to check my thyroid antibodies as I was hinting to possible hyperthyroid/graves disease. Yet at the end of the appointment, he told be to go seek help at his church support group for my neurological symptoms. This was downright dangerous considering I had full blown bartonella and the symptoms were showing, I never had any of these symptoms before and explained this to him. And again, he also stated "you can keep going to every LLMD and unless you heal spiritually from the inside and keep going to a church, you'll never get better."
The guy is wrong, I am better than most. Was just out running 5 miles, despite still dealing with bartonella. I can't help but to comment on the common link between those who are religious and their sole belief in alternative/herbalistic treatment aspect, some of it is downright scary and dangerous. Very similar of the Jehovahs Witness belief system that claim once you get an illness, you just deal with it spiritually and not seek doctor or pharmaceutical treatment.
I'm a big believer that herbs work, but they have to be used in the right way in order for them to work. And if you ask any of the top LLMDs like Dr. H or Dr. J, they either recommend them with antibiotics or when you're taking a break off antibiotics for months if not a year or when you're trickling off herbs during the remission stage, not when you're full blown chronic with borrelia, babesia, bartonella and God knows what other virus or coinfection. Ya know, I still have a belief somewhat in faith and possibly a higher power, I just don't like how people use it to manipulate others into conforming to their way of treatment, fighting some war, whatever it may be... I've studied religion a good portion of my life from grade school to up until college and I know when people are using words from the bible and God to manipulate others into believing their own ideology. It truly sad when this happens...
Problems come in when both the medical industry lies about
things for profit and power, as well as alternative medicine does to sell more books, herbs, and vitamins. It is what it is, they both do it.. Luckily under our current government we still "somewhat" have a freedom of choice to go with whatever treatment we like to. Problems come in when others remark that it's just an endless amount of negative comments and that our comments are making them suspicious, like we're out to wreck Stephen Buhner or something... I rarely make a post about
this anymore unless there's others that are wondering and asking what they think of Buhner and his protocols, even Dr. Rawls.
The way the two of you joined around the same time and have gone back and forth with endless negative comments about herbal treatment for Lyme and about Stephen Buhner is making me very suspicious of your intentions and presence on this forum.
You sound like you are trying to discourage anyone reading your comments from treating with herbs (or maybe treating at all) and persuade people who know nothing about Buhner that his work is worthless at best and that he is something other than who he is.
I think Buhner's a great guy, I truly do, but his education is probably where he falls short with the science behind biofilms, persister cells, dormancy, and the blood brain barrier. I think when he talks about
these issues, he manipulates by suggesting his herbal protocols either don't have to address them or they already address them. Suggesting biofilms are hysteria and that herbs like Japanese Knotweed cross the blood brain barrier efficient enough to eradicate neuro lyme. Japanese knotweed will never be efficient enough to take care of neuro lyme like minocycline, roxithromycin, rifampin, dapsone, disulfiram or IV antibiotics.
I wish everyone best of luck with their treatment, but I'm glad some of you questioning some of the stuff Stephen Buhner has said in his book, especially you Upatnite... Remember you and your daughter's health count on it!
You know just the other day a user on Facebook Group said there's no proof that herbs work for against borrelia infection, I'm like no proof? I'm like there's Dr. Zhang's study on essential oils against borrelia persister cells, Dr. Sapi's work on Stevia and other anti-biofilm herbs, even john hopkins study mentioned artemisinin worked on certain persister cells right up there with daptomycin, but again this is vitro, so it's a matter of getting artemisinin to absorb as well as it's pharmaceutical form called artesunate. https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/essential-oils-from-garlic-and-other-herbs-and-spices-kill-persister-lyme-disease-bacteria.htmlhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc4681354/http://danielcameronmd.com/researchers-identify-novel-drug-combinations-combat-lyme-persister-cells/
Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/12/2019 4:09:10 AM (GMT-6)