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COVID - LYME and Auto-Immunity ....Interesting study

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Garzie
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Joined : May 2017
Posts : 859
Posted 2/1/2021 10:31 AM (GMT -7)
I came across an article the other day and it gave me pause for thought.
The article makes a strong case for long COVID actually being Auto-Immune in nature - and maybe even severe COVID too.

It details the existence of protein chains in human tissues that are the same as protein chains that exist in the Sars-COV-2 virus particle.

They also find a particular signalling pathway that is involved in keeping the immune response in check that is dysregulated in COVID.

They present the case that these two factors act together to produce an ongoing auto-immune condition or cluster of auto-immune conditions- as a result of this dysregulated immune reaction and molecular mimicry between virus proteins and human proteins in many human organ tissues including CNS tissues and blood.

If this turns out to be a repeatable and reliable finding in such a simple organism with such a relatively small genome (therefore making only a relatively small number of proteins)

Then what are the chances that borrelia - with its comparatively huge genome, the largest of any bacterium so far studied (and which, according to recent research is mostly given over to its ability to change its outer surface protein coating) could be causing Auto-immunity through similar mechanisms.

I guess this is not new news that Lyme might cause Auto-immunity – but I have not seen any papers studying this potential mechanism in borrelia in so much detail.

One interesting follow on observation might be to see what we can learn about how these infection induced auto-immune reactions might progress or resolve over time.

If 10% of people get long COVID - there will be huge numbers of people worldwide who are suffering with it – but are they all gradually getting better - or is it a kind of permanent fluctuating state.

The impression I get from the media coverage is that most people do improve gradually with perhaps most being pretty much OK by 6 months – but I don’t know how accurate that is.

I only know one person with long COVID personally and they have been very ill with it since last March - seem to get a little better - and then become bed-bound again - and he seems to have PEM like features also - much like CFS

If indeed long COVID does indeed slowly resolve in the vast majority of people – then you would think that would bode well for those of us with Chronic Lyme induced AI reactions…..

Anyway – I thought it was interesting and since both COVID and Lyme are discussed here - and many of us have AI issues - I thought I would share it.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.617089/full
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dcd2103
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Posts : 1320
Posted 2/2/2021 11:14 AM (GMT -7)
This is what I been saying! Dr K believes it can do this by moleculr mimicry. He says this should be obvious since the lyme vaccine, which uses lyme proteins, was causing autoimmunity (most likely by way of molecular mimicry with human protein myosin), and there's no active infection there...

Here's his testimony to United States Congress, its worth a read. He is very sharp.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/chrg-112shrg75786/html/chrg-112shrg75786.htm

Section of the Statement of Amiram Katz, M.D. to congress:

If after the infections are identified and treated adequately the
patient continues to be symptomatic, there are two main processes that
can explain the patient's condition:

1. Residual damage from either of the above (e.g. brain damage
resulting in white matter lesions leading to permanent neurologic
deficits).
2. The post-Lyme autoimmune syndrome is probably the most common
cause for the chronic illness, the rheumatologic aspects of which were
described in the literature over 20 years ago (Steere, et al.
Association of chronic Lyme arthritis with HLA-DR4 and HLA-DR2 alleles.
NEJM. 1990; 323:219-23. Steere, et al. Autoimmune mechanisms in
antibiotic treatment-resistant Lyme arthritis. JAI. 2001; 16:263-66).

It was also shown by Aledini and Latov that ``Antibodies against
OSPA epitops of Borrelia burgdorferi cross react with neuronal tissue''
(Journal of Neuroimmunology. 2005; 159:192-95) explaining why the post-
Lyme autoimmune syndrome is not only a rheumatological condition, but
also a neurological.
Under the autoimmune category, the post-Lyme vaccination syndrome
should be included (Latov, et al.--Neuropathy and cognitive impairment
following vaccination with the OSPA protein of Borrelia burgdorferi. J
Periph Ner Sys 2004;9:165-67).
A different group of researchers showed that Osp-A shares similar
amino acid sequence with the streptococcal protein M, that is similar
to a human muscle protein, myosin, that triggers human autoimmune
conditions such as carditis (disease of the heart), arthritis and
possibly other post-streptococcal conditions (Raveche, et al. Evidence
of Borrelia autoimmunity-induced component of Lyme carditis and
arthritis. J Clin Microb. 2005;43:850-56).
The recent collaboration between Latov, Aledini, Wormser and
Klempner (who was the PI of the extramural NIH ``chronic'' Lyme study
in the late 1990s--Klempner, et al. Two controlled trials of antibiotic
treatment in patients with persistent symptoms and a history of Lyme
disease. NEJM 2001;345:85-92), showed that the sera of patients with
``chronic'' Lyme disease contain anti-neuronal antibodies (Chandra, et
al. Anti-neural antibody reactivity in patients with a history of Lyme
borreliosis and persistent symptoms. Brain Behav Imm. 2010;24:1018-24).
Recent studies of proteomic patterns (a test for the patterns of
protein components) generated by the cerebrospinal fluids of patients
with ``chronic'' Lyme further supports that this disease entity is
unique and cannot be ``lumped'' with other syndromes (Schutzer, S. E.,
et al. Distinct cerebrospinal fluid proteomes differentiate post-
treatment Lyme disease from chronic fatigue syndrome. Plos One 2011;6:
e17287).
In the past 3 years, we have found that many patients with
``chronic'' Lyme disease exhibit anti-neuronal antibodies and increased
Cam II kinase activity (antibody mediated neuronal damage via calcium
channel activation), as found in Dr. Cunningham's laboratory at the
University of Oklahoma (Kirvan, et al. Mimicry and autoantibody-
mediated neuronal cell signaling in Sydenham chorea. Nature Med.
2003;9:914-20), supporting, again, the autoimmune nature of ``chronic''
Lyme.
We found that both the peripheral and central nervous system are
targeted in post-Lyme and post-Lyme vaccine illnesses. Unlike the known
autoimmune nature of demyelinating neuropathy of large fibers, many of
those patients experience immune neuropathies of sensory and autonomic
ganglia.

Treatment

When facing ``chronic'' Lyme, with an autoimmune flavor, one should
consider treatment with a combination of hydroxy chloroquine and a
macrolide.

HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE + MACROLIDES

The rationale of the treatment is:

1. The hydroxychloroquine potentates the antibiotic effects of
macrolides, by increasing the pH in the lysosome (``Late and chronic
Lyme disease'', Sam Donta. Medical Clinics of North America 2002; 86:
341-49. ``Macrolide therapy of chronic Lyme disease,'' Sam Donta.
Medical Science Monitoring, 2003; 9(11):136-42).
2. Hydroxychloroquine has also immune modulating properties and is
classified as a weak DMARD (disease modifying anti-rheumatic drug). It
interferes with the functioning of T- and B-Lymphocytes, monocytes and
macrophages by entering their lysosomes and increasing the lysosomal
pH, which inhibits the ability of these cells to produce and release
inflammatory cytokines and hydrolytic enzymes.
Clarithromycin possesses anti-inflammatory properties and
potentiates the effects of hydroxychloroquine. I have seen many
patients with intractable arthritis improve when macrolides are added
(``Anti-inflammatory activity of macrolide antibiotics.'' The Journal
of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics. January 2000, 156-63;
Ianaro, et al.).
Immune modulation and anti-inflammatory properties are especially
advantageous in the setting of post-Lyme autoimmune syndrome.
3. The combination of an anti-malarial and a macrolide treats
Babesia, a common co-infection ``Atovaquone and azithromycin for the
treatment of Babesioses'' Krause, et al. New England Journal of
Medicine 2000; 343: 1454-58).

BENZANTHINE PENICILLIN

When hydroxychloroquine/macrolide combination is not effective,
cannot be tolerated (allergic reactions, GI side effects, tinnitus,
contact dermatitis, psoriasis flair up, ophthalmologic
contraindications, etc.), or when hydroxychloroquine has reached its
maximal safe cumulative dosage (1,000G)--intramuscular benzanthine G
penicillin (Bicillin LA) is an option (Marco AC and Accrdo S. Long-term
treatment of chronic Lyme disease with benzanthine penicillin. Ann
Rheumat Dis 1992;51:1007-08).
The mechanism of action of benzanthine penicillin (other than the
obvious antimicrobial) is unknown. Why 3 percent of the daily
intravenous dose of penicillin can achieve much better results when
injected intramuscularly once a week?
One explanation is that the bacteriocidal signal it sends is not
strong enough to activate defense mechanisms of the spirochete, but
enough to suppress the expression of the outer surface proteins (mainly
OspA and OspB) which are known to trigger inflammation (Rupprecht, et
al. The pathogenesis of Lyme neuroborreliosis: from infection to
inflammation. Molecular Medicine. 2008;14:205-12).
Another explanation is that Bicillin is an effective anti-
streptococcal treatment and that the autoimmune morbidity is
perpetuated by streptococcal presence.
I have had a significant number of patients with Chronic Lyme
disease who did not get better on long courses of oral and/or
intravenous antibiotics, but responded to weekly Bicillin shots within
a month or two. This treatment is so benign, that I offer it now prior
to hydroxychloroquine and clarithromycin, in spite of its poorly
explained mechanism of action.

INTRAVENOUS IMMUNOGLOBULINS (IVIG)

Are not indicated for the treatment of Lyme disease per se. They
are indicated when there is immune deficiency or neurologic conditions
of autoimmune nature complicating Lyme disease.
Autoimmune diseases affect about 5 percent of individuals in
developed countries. Autoimmunity is the patho-physiologic mechanism in
neurologic conditions affecting the myelin of the peripheral and
central nervous system, the basal ganglia, the post-synaptic membrane,
the hippocampal pyramidal cells and Purkinje cells, among other
targets, in a variety of autoimmune conditions of the nervous system.
Autoimmunity is believed to be a result of complex interactions
between genetic traits and environmental factors. Infections and
vaccinations are some of the more known environmental factors. Among
other known mechanisms are myeloprolif-
erative conditions and other neoplasms (through a paraneoplastic
mechanism).
The outer surface protein A of Borrelia burgdorferi (OspA) is a
lipoprotein with a molecular weight of 31kd that possesses immuno-
stimulatory properties that can activate pro-inflammatory toll-like
receptors of the immune system. Receptors of this kind are also
expressed in a variety of neuronal elements including Schwan cells,
microglia, asrtocytes and oligodendroglia, which probably contribute to
the development of inflammatory responses affecting the entire nervous
system. The OspA has a partial amino acid sequence (165-73) homologous
to that of HLFA-1 (human lymphocytic function associated antigen-1)
that results in activation of T cells to this auto antigen ending in an
autoimmune disease (autoimmune disease caused by ``molecular mimicry''
mechanism).
As discussed earlier, it was shown that certain sequence of amino
acids on the OspA can trigger the formation of anti-neuronal
autoantibodies (Aledini and Latov. Antibodies against OSPA epitops of
Borrelia burgdorferi cross react with neuronal tissue. Journal of
Neuroimmunology. 2005; 159:192-95). Osp-A shares similar amino acid
sequence to the streptococcal protein M, that is similar to myosin and
triggers immune carditis, arthritis and even Sydenham's chorea
(Raveche, et al. Evidence of Borrelia autoimmunity-induced component of
Lyme carditis and arthritis. J Clin Microb. 2005;43:850-56).
Both Lyme disease and the Lyme vaccine (LYMErix--Latov, et al.--
Neuropathy and cognitive impairment following vaccination with the OSPA
protein of Borrelia burgdorferi. J Periph Ner Sys 2004;9:165-67) can
trigger neurologic autoimmune disease. Since the Lyme vaccine is a pure
preparation of OspA (coated onto aluminum hydroxide), it is reasonable
to assume that this protein is also responsible for the autoimmune
disease triggered by Lyme infection. This autoimmune disease is
especially common in individuals with class II, MHC HLA DR4
(DRB1*0401), whose macrophages identify the amino acid sequence shared
by the OspA and our body proteins as ``non-self '' attach to it and
present it to the T & B lymphocytes.
Persisting presence of IgM antibodies reacting to the OspA, which
is not reported by common laboratories (Western Blot band 31), might be
an indicator of an autoimmune condition triggered by this protein. The
fact that patients with this condition have a disease of both
peripheral and central myelin, also supports the etiology (post-Lyme/
LYMErix autoimmune), since it is uncommon for patients with ``pure''
MS, who have a disease of the central myelin, to have peripheral
neuropathy. And vice versa, it is uncommon to have MS when having
demyelinating neuropathy.
The most common Lyme associated autoimmune conditions affecting the
central and peripheral nervous system myelin result in ``white matter
lesions'' on brain MRI's which are associated with a wide range of
neuropsychiatric manifestations; damage to the basal ganglia/sub
thalamic nucleus resulting in bizarre and disabling movement disorders
and; peripheral nerve conditions such as Guillain Barre, CIDP and even
multifocal motor neuropathy with block, but more frequently
ganglioneuropathy of the sensory and autonomic nerves.
Intravenous immunoglobulins (IVIG) are widely used for treatment of
a variety of diseases, but mainly in autoimmune neurologic conditions
(Dalakas MC. Intravenous immunoglobulin in autoimmune neuromuscular
diseases. JAMA. 291:
2367-75, 2004).
Their exact mechanism of their action is unknown, but there are
several possibilities:

a. They probably bind to the idiotypes via their anti-idiotypic
variable portion, blocking the interactions between the idiotypes and
idiotypic antigens that usually lead to autoimmune disease.
b. IVIG bind to the Fc receptors of the macrophages preventing
phagocytosis and to the Fc receptors of the autoantibodies in the
antigen-antibody complex, preventing activation of the complement.
c. They bind to the C3 complement fraction and impeding the
complement cascade.

The major advantage of IVIG therapy is achieving significant
immunomodulation with arrest of the autoimmune process, which is
comparable to high dose steroids or cytotoxic agents, without
immunosuppression and its associated risks.
In multiple sclerosis, the effects of beta-interferons on
susceptibility to infections are not clear. By modifying the host
inflammatory response they can impair the body's ability to fight
infection. The recent natalizumab (Tysarbi) experience (Warnke, et al.
Natalizumab and Progressive Multifocal Leukoencephalopathy. Arch Neur.
2010; 67:923-930) showed that the only two patients receiving
natalizumab that developed PML (progressive multi focal
leukoencephalopathy), where those also receiving Avonex (beta-
interferon 1-alpha). This means that the beta interferons are not so
safe when patients have an ongoing infection.
Our view is that in conditions where autoimmune processes are
linked to infections and it is not clear whether the infection is
active or not, IVIG treatment should be tried first. High dose steroids
and/or immunosuppressive agents should be considered as a treatment
option only when IVIG fail, or contraindicated.

Selected Publications on the Topic

Grzegorz S. Nowakowski, M.D.; and Amiram Katz, M Epilepsia partialis
continua as an atypical presentation of cat scratch disease in a
young adult. NEUROLOGY 2002;59:1815-16.
Katz A. IVIG treatment in patients with Lyme associated movement
disorder Autoimm Rev. 2006;15:106-09.
Katz A. IVIG treatment in patients with Lyme and demyelinating disease.
Autoimm Rev. 2006;15:302-05.
Katz A, Zubal G, Westerveldt M, Blumenfeld H and Seibyl J.
Neuropsychological Testing and SPECT/PET Ratio-Images In Patients
with Lyme Encephalopathy--Pre- and Post-Antibiotic Treatment
Studies. JOI. 2007;17:103.
Katz, A and Berkley JM. Diminished Epidermal Nerve Fiber Density in
Patients with Antibodies to Outer Surface Protein A (OspA) of B.
burgdorferi Improves with Intravenous Immunoglobulin Therapy.
Neurology 2009;72(S3):A55.
Milone M, Katz A, Amato AA, et al. Sporadic late onset nemaline
myopathy responsive to IVIG and immunotherapy. Muscle & Nerve.
2010;41:272-76.

Senator Blumenthal. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Dr. Petrini.

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 2/2/2021 11:18:53 AM (GMT-7)

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Garzie
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2017
Posts : 859
Posted 2/2/2021 1:29 PM (GMT -7)
interesting article Dcd - thanks for posting that

I guess we each have to try to figure out which category we fall into
1, Lyme infection ( with or more likely with co-infections ) - but no auto-immunity
2, Lyme infection ( with or more likely with co-infections ) - with auto-immunity
3, No active Lyme infection or coinfection - only ongoing auto-immunity

I was watching this guy on one of the LDN Research Trust website Videos talking about Lyme and LDN and he was putting forward the view that the main difference between chronic Lyme and healthy people is the way thier immune systems are reacting - rather than whether there is in fact any replicating spirochetes inside them. he believed many, even most people have been exposed and quoted some urine PCR tests that support that......?
i am paraphrasing quite a bit here as i didn't find him the most eloquent of presenters - but what i think he was getting ot was that you could have a bunch of people

-one may have an active infection - and lots of symptoms ( ok - no surprise there )

-another some low level of borrelia existing and replicating - and lots of symptoms ( immune intolerance)
( or even just residual antigenic material in their joints and tendons and tissues even years later )

-another the same low level of borrelia existing and replicating - and no symptoms ( immune tolerance )

so it comes back to that thing we discussed before around what is the definition of an infection - and what is some kind of leftover effect. he did quote some examples of immune tolerance to other bacteria that are known and widely accepted, and also some blood test lab markers of this intolerance - though most of these were markers only used in research settings and not something accessible to get tested by you or I.

https://ldnresearchtrust.org/cory-tichauer-nd-immune-dysfunction-post-treatment-lyme-disease-using-naltrexone-balance-chronic

it was thought-provoking though - and i think you and i agree there is very likely something more going on here aside from simple infection in the normal sense we understand it.

the info you posted is pretty compelling evidence for the potential for auto-immunity to be triggered by lyme - at least in some people with specific HLA epitopes - but the paper i linked to above says there needs to be a second factor present to invoke AI in covid - i don't know if that is present also in borrelia infections - but it wouldn't surprise me - as it seems to trigger many cytokine cascades.

the question might then become - ok, so, once triggered how do you turn the AI off again?
does this happen naturally with time in COVID patients - if so why in COVID and not in Lyme?

i remember Buhner writing about it also - but he was firmly of the belief that this was not "real auto-immunity " and once the infection is controlled it would subside and return to normal - at least that is how i remember it.
Perhaps it does in most people - depending on your HLA ....

Maybe we will learn something here from the COVID long haulers that will help us all.

Post Edited (Garzie) : 2/2/2021 1:42:07 PM (GMT-7)

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Garzie
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Joined : May 2017
Posts : 859
Posted 2/2/2021 1:53 PM (GMT -7)
ps - not really sure how much weight to attach to it - but i had teh LFA-1 marker tested at Armin with my other tests - the result was negative

"1 Borrelia burgdorferi LFA-1 result 1 SI
0-1 = negative
2-3 = weak positive
> 3 = positive
The results of the EliSpot tests indicate no current
cellular activities against Borrelia burgdorferi"
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Seb4
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Posts : 38
Posted 2/2/2021 1:54 PM (GMT -7)
Check out today's New York Times opinion section. It proposes the opposite: that chronic illness is, in fact, indicative of still active disease. Not sure where I stand on this.
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dcd2103
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Joined : Nov 2019
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Posted 2/2/2021 2:08 PM (GMT -7)

Seb4 said...
Check out today's New York Times opinion section. It proposes the opposite: that chronic illness is, in fact, indicative of still active disease. Not sure where I stand on this.

I think Dr Ks opinion, and i dont want to put words in his mouth but I think I have this right, is that an active infection *can* persist. He agrees with all the literature on persisters. I also think he feels that there's often serological clues like positive IgM, but not always.

He also feels, however, that it's often not an "active infection" that need be the problem. It can trigger an autoimmune or autoinflammatory condition. Similar to Garzie's point, he thinks that most of us have exposure. And if you've had exposure, you may never be able to rid yourself of the remnants. Instead they sit in the back ground at low levels and stimulate the immune system..autoinflammatory. In addition, you can develop autoantibodies as outlined in that article above, autoimmune.

Basically, its tough teasing out what is what in these chronic cases. We know that active infections can last for years because of persisters. And you could win that persister battle and beat the active infection beck, but still have residual trace amounts that continue to trigger inflammation and up-regulate the immune system. And if that isnt enough, lyme can trigger autoantibodies that cause autoimmune conditions, particularly neuropathies.
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WalkingbyFaith
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Posted 2/2/2021 2:33 PM (GMT -7)
I listened to the interview with Dr. Phillips and Dr. Been about Dr. Phillips’ new book Chronic that is coming out. I understand he covers more than Lyme including COVID. I gathered that he is at least questioning if not debunking some of the prior medically accepted ideas of autoimmunity and mimicry. Should be interesting. There’s a link to the video in the post about the book.
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/2/2021 2:43 PM (GMT -7)
So how does he explain covid long haulers? The gist of his videos I’ve watched is if you take enough antibiotics, your autoimmunity will go away. Know a few people who have been to him as well and that was the criticism
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astroman
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Posted 2/2/2021 3:01 PM (GMT -7)

Seb4 said...
Check out today's New York Times opinion section. It proposes the opposite: that chronic illness is, in fact, indicative of still active disease. Not sure where I stand on this.

It all depends on what chronic illness is- its definition is very opinionated. You cannot put boarders on an opinion without true definition.

Chronic illness magnifies all of your body's shortcomings / it takes advantage of these. Obviously your whole body can go "haywire". We all know this.

But: Its known and in some cases proven that body systems can get stuck in a loop thinking this is the new normal. Nervous systems and muscle will do this. And can be retrained. Without retraining the feedback loop, the body thinks its still damaged or ill, thus staying in its "damage control" mode which might actually be self-inflicting, auto-immune or close to it.

As previously mentioned, cant forget about genes. We know more about "bad" genes being "switched on" than the ability to switch them off.
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Garzie
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Posted 2/3/2021 4:48 AM (GMT -7)
this recent study points to hyperactive RANK signaling on B cells as the driver of autoimmunity in animal studies and the use of blocking antibodies that bind to the receptor to treat the condition - which works in rodents.

https://rupress.org/jem/article/218/2/e20200517/211464/Pathological-RANK-signaling-in-B-cells-drives

i had a look to see if this RANK signaling pathway is thought to be active in borrelia infections and found no mention of it in the monologue in buhners book on Lyme - 2nd edition - nor via a search for Borrelia and RANK signaling on PUBMED -

but a lot of the downstream cytokines in the RANK pathway are very much involved in infections like Lyme and Bartonella - eg NF-kB, p38, JNK, ERK, MAPK .
i don't know enough about cellular signaling to know whether RANK's involvement is, therefore, implicit in these infections.

it really looks to me like we need to have more research directed at unpicking this part of the puzzle - rather than pure testing modalities for the infection itself or treating that infection where it exists - as otherwise - if we cannot pick apart which people are still infected from those that are not, but have some immune dysfunction then we will just keep pumping people full of more and more aggressive antibiotic regimes with no clear endpoint.

if, once actual levels of live organisms in hosts gets below a certain level - then it becomes irrelevant whether they are there or not or alive or dead - and symptoms are instead driven by immune tolerance or lack of it - then we need to have tests that can determine this - and treatments to restore tolerance.

This would also finally move the argument out of the way over are these people "infected" or not - something that has plagued patients with this condition for decades now.
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Garzie
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Posted 2/3/2021 5:15 AM (GMT -7)
interestingly - although RANK signaling is mainly discussed in terms of osteoclast and osteoblast formation and regulation - its other acknowledged roles are in Immune function - and particularly in the regulation of appropriate IgA responses to commensal bacteria in the human gut...

it is these secretory IgA responses that allow tuning the many IgA antibodies to manage the microbiota of both the small and large intestines and regulating immune tolerance to gut organisms that is largely responsible for allowing the human host to live in harmony with its gut microbiome.

another area of regular discussion amongst our members .....

eg
https://www.nature.com/articles/mi2015121#Sec11

i know this is a kind of random sampling of possible mechanisms involved and as such is far from concrete evidence of a connection - but it is interesting none the less
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/3/2021 10:49 AM (GMT -7)
very interesting garzie. I have to read more about RANK signaling, its not part of the immune system i'm familiar with.

Good news is that there's going to be a lot of research into this w/ post-covid syndrome, hopefully benefits us as well

In addition, i spoke w/ Mary R and she confirmed to me that she's had several patients develop autoimmunity after an acute blasto infection like i had. She thinks if its still showing on a test then you should treat, so will try some antimicrobials soon. maybe that will remove another trigger
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Garzie
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Posted 2/4/2021 4:08 AM (GMT -7)
yep, let's hope so.

more indications seem to exist that something along these lines is at work - especially in Lyme like illnesses like CFS, IBS etc

eg
"Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS) is accompanied by a) systemic IgA/IgM responses against the lipopolysaccharides (LPS) of commensal bacteria; b) inflammation, e.g. increased plasma interleukin-(IL)1 and tumor necrosis factor (TNF)α; and c) activation of cell-mediated immunity (CMI), as demonstrated by increased neopterin."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21967891/

and there are dozens of similar articles in this area of immune overreactions to commensal bacteria on that same page of PUBMED relating to the CFS/ME world

interestingly - my secretory IgA readings were pretty much up at IBD levels in my doctor's data comprehensive stool tests and i experience significant PEM-like effects ( associated with CFS) so it seems particularly pertinent to my case.

maybe this is one of the reasons Keto helps - simply less commensal bacteria overall....
maybe mega ABX combos are simply killing so many commensal bacteria it allows the body to calm down and reset its immune tolerance .....

BTW - 90% of articles on RANK signaling are devoted primarily to its role in bone metabolism - rather than its other functions - which seem quite wide-ranging. So you have to dig a bit to find immune functions

I have a bunch of ideas whirring in my brain at the moment - one of them is that many indigenous people typically have worse stuff than blasto inside them and yet they appear to be very healthy - so maybe the immune tolerance issue is the key.

after all. you can make lab animals with no gut bacteria at all - and they are far from healthy - tend to have upset immune systems and inflammation etc - and it's almost like the sanitized western world is kind of halfway to the lab animals state with our sanitized ultra-processed food, disinfected living spaces, massively less diverse gut microbiomes (vs indigenous hunter-gatherers) and cultural focus on killing bugs (anti-septic toothpaste, mouthwash, nasal sprays, soaps, shampoos, laundry detergent, handwash, room sprays .....etc etc ) - meanwhile, our societies are getting more and more unhealthy with auto-immune and immune dysregulation disorders growing exponentially over the last 4 decades

I don't know how you turn back the clock on the mechanisms at work - but at this stage, I'm not entirely convinced about killing or sanitizing our way there.....

just thinking aloud at this point
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/4/2021 5:48 AM (GMT -7)
Yea i agree with your points here. I'm not entirely sure either, because my view is that pre-historic man learned to live with these pathogens for millenia, our immune systems normally can ignore them and live happily with them. Problem is something in our modern world seems to be driving the immune system nuts, at which point tolerance is gone and we can no longer handle these things.

I think that the natural biodiversity in the gut just gets destroyed, and thats when things to haywire. gut permeability, inflammation, etc, western diet plays a big part. This doesnt happen to the indiginous people because they dont eat like we do. I agree this is why keto helps, it just takes down overall levels of bacteria. I think they have trouble identifying commensal vs opportunistic bacteria. There's just not enough known about it. So i think that when they say the immune system is reacting to commensal bacteria, what it's really reacting to is dysbiosis...some sort of unhealthy shift in the microbiome.

Toxic stress is also a huge factor. I've been finding plenty of links between the autonomic nervous system and the immune system, where stress upregulates glial cell activity which has deleritous downstream effects

WRT to the last point, mouth taping has been HUGE for me. Since i started mouth taping at night, i'm breathing through my nose during the day. I notice i no-longer do that "hyperventilation breathing" where i breathe quick and fast through my mouth and get all amped up. I think this was a pretty big factor in my getting sick. For years i'd get super amped up and jittery at the slightest provocation. The simplest stresses would break me. My breathing was all off, and it makes a huge difference. I've also been reading about stoicism and mindfulness which is helping to change my mindset. The two of these methods combined (mindfulness + breathing) is my own version of DNRS (ashok gupta's program didnt really work for me, found it too cumbersome and contrived, and its supposed to be much simpler than annie hoppers version).

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 2/4/2021 6:03:58 AM (GMT-7)

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potsnpans
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Posted 2/4/2021 5:16 PM (GMT -7)
There's so much going on in the gut and in our bodies overall.. it's overwhelming!

I don't usually notice gut/digestive issues in myself but when I do my other symptoms are often about to flare. I'm going to go down the rabbit hole with those CFS links when I have more time.. problem for me is I need to read these studies like 10 times before I can understand hopefully 10% of the contents smile

With regard to long covid, I found this paper which gives a nice summary of the research so far:

"Long-Haul COVID-19: Putative Pathophysiology, Risk Factors, and Treatments"

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202012.0242/v1

...it was posted in December, prior to the paper in the op, therefore it does not include the "molecular mimicry".

The most relevant part to this discussion would be "section 2.2 unresolved Inflammation". Here's a quick rundown:

- Persistence may be a factor as viral shedding has been documented for as long as 4 months

- T-cells may become auto-reactive due to "bystander activation".. (quick search reveals that this may also happen in Lyme)

- "thyroid dysfunction has been detected in 15-20% of patients with COVID-19.. may play a role in autoimmunity pathophysiology"

- "B-cells may also be involved... as evidenced by the presence of self-reactive autoantibodies in patients with COVID-19"

- covid can cause lymphopenia/low b and t-cells (I believe the virus may actually infect them). As the cell numbers increase post-infection, "elevated inflammation from unresolved hyperinflammation may ensue..."

- mentions infection of gastric and intestinal cells leading to gut dysbiosis, and possibly playing a role in chronic inflammation w neurological manifestations.

- makes a comparison to MCAS and notes "SARS-CoV-2 has been reported to trigger mast cell responses alongside other immune cells"

Then there's this paper which is moving further away from comparisons to Lyme, but it's very intriguing and if it's true it could explain continued immune activation in covid:

"SARS-CoV-2 RNA reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome"

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.12.422516v1

Note: That one is also a preprint but it's authored by well established experts from Harvard and MIT.
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/5/2021 6:38 AM (GMT -7)
The first link didnt work pots, but the second one was quite interesting.

I plan on experimenting with exosomes pretty soon. Theyre quite anti-inflammatory and can aid in damage repair. A bit expensive, but im hoping they can help shut down some of these pathways that are turned on in me.

Here is a new company working on some cool exosome therapies which could be really relevant to neuro-inflammatory lyme.

https://aruna-bio.webflow.io/aruna-bio-our-platform#our-pipeline
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potsnpans
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Posted 2/5/2021 9:00 AM (GMT -7)
Hmm not sure why that link isn't working. Anyway it should come up as the first search result for "Long-Haul COVID-19: Putative Pathophysiology, Risk Factors, and Treatments". References can be found in section 2.2 for each of the points in the summary above if anyone wants to go deeper. This research has been moving along more slowly than I had expected though.. hoping the effort is on par with the intensity of the problem. Maybe it's still too early to say...

Btw, some of the studies referenced in Dr K's presentation have been very helpful to me.. and the discussion around gut health and the immune system is fascinating and insightful as usual. I see those things from a similar vantage point.

I'm not familiar with exosomes.. interested in all of your more experimental endeavors so please continue to share and update!
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/5/2021 9:22 AM (GMT -7)
Exosomes are the messenger cells that stem cells release. They've long been thought to alter inflammatory messaging for the better. I posted about them this morning in this thread, then like an hour later i saw this story a friend posted that israel may have developed a cure for covid using exosomes!

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/coronavirus/1612515689-reports-coronavirus-medicine-developed-in-israel-96-effective
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Garzie
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Posted 2/5/2021 10:29 AM (GMT -7)
this link should work Pots - seems like it just needs the document number

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202012.0242/v1

will have a read ....

interestingly - ivermectin is being used as a treatment for long haulers - as it has some interesting immune-modulating and viral replication blocking properties and seems to be meeting with some success in the long hauler populations and their MD's in the USA.

this links with the other thread on the new book Chronic by Dr Steven Phillips where he treated himself and others with Lyme and other bacterial infections with Ivermectin as an immune system modulator - and got very good results ( but he does say it depends on what stage of the disease you are at - too early / full-blown and you may just get huge ongoing herx .....)

short courses of steroids like dexamethasone and deltacotril also being used with some success in long haulers - but it has a higher risk profile and i think for those with lyme or even suspected possible Lyme that is a high-risk approach as, if i recall correctly, this kind of immune-suppressing steroids are a known NO-NO - for those with Lyme and can result in permanent damage.

thanks for your contributions - i will try to read up and come back to this in a day or so
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/5/2021 11:11 AM (GMT -7)

potsnpans said...


Btw, some of the studies referenced in Dr K's presentation have been very helpful to me.. and the discussion around gut health and the immune system is fascinating and insightful as usual. I see those things from a similar vantage point.

Which presentation was this pots?
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potsnpans
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Posted 2/5/2021 1:06 PM (GMT -7)
Dcd: Maybe it wasn't a "presentation".. I was referring to his statement to congress that you posted earlier in the thread.
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dcd2103
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Posted 2/5/2021 1:12 PM (GMT -7)
oh oops i misread that gotcha. I'll have to go and look up the studies he references too!
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Garzie
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Posted 2/5/2021 2:00 PM (GMT -7)
...that makes three of us then smile
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Georgia Hunter
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Posted 2/6/2021 6:34 PM (GMT -7)
There are about 100 different bacteria in the body that share the exact same nucleic acid sequence with SARS-Cov2. There are multiple human genes that share the same nucleic acid sequence with SARS-Cov2. Is it a result of molecular mimicry? With the vaccine trigger VAERD reactions in the future? These are all good questions.

We are a system of limited resources. COVID severely depletes those resources. When alternate pathways begin to function, inefficiencies greatly cause us more oxidative stress. The body copes the best it can and makes some calls we don't completely understand but I can promise you one thing, the body does what it thinks is best for us to survive.
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Garzie
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Posted 2/7/2021 7:37 AM (GMT -7)
thanks, Georgia - I agree - we are surrounded by things that could potentially be sources of proteins with potential for molecular mimicry for human proteins - thats why I think it might be more useful to look at the triggering factors/ or co-factors that seem to be needed to turn that potential problem into an active AI issue.

We cant feasibly remove all these similar protein chains from our environment - but maybe there is a way to switch off the triggering factor.....
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