Leak Volume vs. Pads

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TSFFZ
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25
   Posted 10/10/2008 9:00 PM (GMT -6)   
I have found that having a pad count is not definitive so, I have started weighing my leakage. I am currently using 1 pad/day w/15 gms. of urine. This can certainly increase with activity and hydration, but is beginning to be somewhat standard. I am interested if anyone else measures their leakage, this way, so that I can get an idea of where I stand. I am approximately 9 months out from DiVinci at MD Anderson.

kw
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 883
   Posted 10/10/2008 9:28 PM (GMT -6)   
I have no idea as far a weight or liquid volume. I just know I leaked all the time. If things do not improve in a few more months and the volume is still more than you can handle you might look at trying the "sling" or the AUS.

KW
    43 at Dx and Surgery (RRP)
    PSA 5.7, Biopsy 3 of 12 positive (up to 75%) all on left side of prostate, Gleason 7
    RRP on Oct. 17, 2006 - Nerves on right side saved. All Lab's clear. 
    Cathiter in for 28 days due to complications in healing. Removed Nov. 9, 2006
    First Post op PSA on Dec. 11, 2006  Undetectable 0.00.
    ED workable and usable with Viagra.
    Feb. 20th, 2007 - Feb. 4th, 2008  Cystoscope, Two Collagen injections,Second Opinion Consultation for Incontinance at OU Medical Center, Bio-Feedback training, Chiropractic, Accupuncture  to try to resolve ongoing incontinance (4-6 pads a day)  All PSA's 0.00.
    Feb. 22nd, 2008 - Surgery to install the AMS AdVance Male Sling.
    March 27th, 2008 - Sling not working, Little or no improvement.
    April 18, 2008 - Collagen injection.  Back to using 4-6 full pads a day within a week.
    May 14, 2008 - Another collagen injection to try to Band-Aid the leaking for our June cruise.  Will start making conusultation appiontments for AUS after we return.
    July 14th, 2008 - AUS consultation with Dr. Morey at UT Southwestern (Dallas).
    July 30, PSA 0.00.
    Aug. 22nd, 2008 - AUS Surgery by Dr. Morey
    Oct. 6th, 2008 - AUS Activation by Dr. Morey
     


Mavica
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 407
   Posted 10/10/2008 10:43 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't understand what value there is in going through the trouble of weighing the pads - even if you could do that effectively (and if you're out and about and/or working it's not going to be easy to do).  When the leaking stops, you're better.  That's how I'm going to judge the incontenence issue.  My Urologist told me in a follow-up meeting this week that most of his patients leak for at least the first three months, after which most of them see a substantial improvement.  Some don't see the improvement until 6-months, he said.  At work yesterday - 8 hours (plus an hour each way in transit - for a total of 10) I used about 5 pads.  Today I took the day off and was running lots of errands - and in 3 hours I used 6 pads.  Some days are obviously better than others and activity level plays an important role in the number of pads used - from what I'm experiencing.

Age:  59 (58 at diagnosis - June, 2008)

April '08 PSA 4.8 ("free PSA" 7.9), up from 3.5 year prior

June '08 had biopsy, 2 days later told results positive but in less than 1% of sample

Gleason's 3+3=6

Developed sepsis 2 days post-biopsy, seriously ill in hospital for 3 days

Dr. recommended robotic removal using da Vinci

Surgery 9/10/08

Northwestern Memorial Hospital, Chicago, IL

Dr. Robert Nadler, Urologist/Surgeon

Post-op Gleason's:  3+3, Tertiary 4

Margins:  Free

Bladder & Urethral:  Free

Seminal vesicles:  Not involved

Lymphatic/Vascular Invasion:  Not involved

Tumor:  T2c; Location:  Bilateral; Volume:  20%

Catheter:  Removed 12-days after surgery

Incontinent:  Yes (19 days post-op)

Combination of Cialis and MUSE (alprostadil) three times weekly started 9-27-08

Returned to work 9-29-08 (18-19 days post-op)

 


Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4828
   Posted 10/11/2008 4:12 AM (GMT -6)   

Here's my story and I'm sticking to it idea

Food for Thought - aka Mind over Matter

Last week, my surgeon asked me about my incontinence at my first quarter PSA results appointment.

Told him I used a new pad in the morning and another when I got home from work mainly for sanitary/freshness reasons. Told him I was sleeping without Anything to give little pee-wee some fresh air. 

He said he wanted me off pads by January for our next meeting. 

Thought it was strange the way he said it....Like I had a choice in the matter..

I woke up Saturday morning and decided to make it a no pad day. Haven’t worn one or needed one since. Have had one or two accident and a couple close calls but find it interesting that if I pay more attention, I can make it stop – aka not leak.

 

 

 


Age 53   - 5'11"   205lbs
Overall Heath Condition - Good
PSA - July 2007 & Jan 2008 -> 1.3
Gleason - 6
(biopsy done March 4, 2008-> 2 of 12)
 
06/25/08 - Da Vinci robotic laparoscopy
10/03/08 - 1st Quarter PSA -> less then .01
 

Surgeon - Keith A. Waguespack, M.D.

Las Colinas and Plano Offices

 


egor
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 46
   Posted 10/11/2008 8:45 AM (GMT -6)   
For most men who post on this site, 15 grams/day is practically dry.
I've just passed my 2nd anniversary from DaVinci. After the first year, I started weighing every day hoping I could see a downward trend. Despite using exotic curve smoothing techniques, the daily weighing was all over the chart from a low of 11 grams to a high of 500 grams/ day if I exercised a lot and then had a large, spicy meal.
As you can see from my signature, I did kegels, bio-feedback and had two collagen infusions. After all was said and done, I was still averaging 180 grams/day.
I had sling surgery on Sept 5.2008 and am now dry.
As to your question, I have an old chart I downloaded from a site which no longer exists showing weeks since surgery vs pad weight.
(Done by Anna Smithers in 2007. You can find more current work by Googling her)
It shows that at 35 weeks, 98% of men were < 50 grams, 92% < 10 grams and 84% < 1 gram.
This is in line with what my Uro said, that 95% of men are dry after one year (My personal opinion is that this is overstated, but that's just me).
You don't say what you've done to try to improve. Are you doing Kegels? Are you sure you're doing them correctly? Bio-feedback can help that. Collagen infusions will help for a sort time, but is rarely a permanent fix.
I'm very encougaged with the AdVance Male Sling procedure I had 5 weeks ago.(See my previous posts). For men under 200 grams/day it's a good solution.
Ed

Ed from Rochester, NY 66 years old
PSA 6/06 1.9
4/06 Biopsy 1 core cancerous Gleason 3 + 3 = 6
8/06 Da Vinci Dr. Joseph, Strong Memorial, Rochester, NY
Gleason 3 + 4 = 7, negative margins
3 month PSA .01
6 month PSA .01
9 month PSA .02
1 yr PSA .01
1 1/2 yr PSA .02
2 yr PSA .03
1st collagen 12/07
2nd collagen 3/08
Imiprimine 7/08
still leaking about 120 ml/day 2 - 4 pad
AdVance Male sling procedure 9-05-08
Unable to void, catheter in for 11 days, then self-catheterization
Dry after Catheter removed, no exercise for six weeks from procedure date


lemonlime1
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 34
   Posted 10/11/2008 9:08 AM (GMT -6)   
 hi guys lemon lime here i read on www.prostate cancer .com under coping with prostate cancer ,collagen injections for incontinence , that injections are not recomended for rp or radiation therapy. i wonder why so many are giving them to patients then .. wow i hope it s not just a experimental thing ... have a good weekend ..---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 48 yrs old davinci rochester ny  7 -08 , still 5 - 7 pads a day smurf

SebringR
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 29
   Posted 10/12/2008 1:31 PM (GMT -6)   
My Doctor recommended weighing the pads too.  If nothing else it gives your Doctor a reference point of how you are doing.

kw
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 883
   Posted 10/12/2008 9:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Steve in Dallas, I wish I could have willed my away. But no matter how much I put my mind to it I could not get mine to stop. I truly hope yours continues to improve.
KW
    43 at Dx and Surgery (RRP)
    PSA 5.7, Biopsy 3 of 12 positive (up to 75%) all on left side of prostate, Gleason 7
    RRP on Oct. 17, 2006 - Nerves on right side saved. All Lab's clear. 
    Cathiter in for 28 days due to complications in healing. Removed Nov. 9, 2006
    First Post op PSA on Dec. 11, 2006  Undetectable 0.00.
    ED workable and usable with Viagra.
    Feb. 20th, 2007 - Feb. 4th, 2008  Cystoscope, Two Collagen injections,Second Opinion Consultation for Incontinance at OU Medical Center, Bio-Feedback training, Chiropractic, Accupuncture  to try to resolve ongoing incontinance (4-6 pads a day)  All PSA's 0.00.
    Feb. 22nd, 2008 - Surgery to install the AMS AdVance Male Sling.
    March 27th, 2008 - Sling not working, Little or no improvement.
    April 18, 2008 - Collagen injection.  Back to using 4-6 full pads a day within a week.
    May 14, 2008 - Another collagen injection to try to Band-Aid the leaking for our June cruise.  Will start making conusultation appiontments for AUS after we return.
    July 14th, 2008 - AUS consultation with Dr. Morey at UT Southwestern (Dallas).
    July 30, PSA 0.00.
    Aug. 22nd, 2008 - AUS Surgery by Dr. Morey
    Oct. 6th, 2008 - AUS Activation by Dr. Morey
     


SkyDaver
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 72
   Posted 10/13/2008 9:12 PM (GMT -6)   
I was using 4-6 pads /day when I went to see Dr. Webster about fixing the incontinence. Part of the pre-visit routine was to keep a log of how much I was voiding for three days, and to save one day's worth of pads for them to weigh at the visit. Being of a computer geek technical background, and knowing that some days were perceptibly dryer than others, the idea of a single day's volume as a measure of my leakage was a bother to me.

I started logging the actual volume, since I could have a 'dry' 6 pad day, and a 'wet' 4 pad day. I kept the volume data in an spreadsheet, and used a statistical analysis program at work to run a locally weighted statistical smoothing to see what the moving average was.

I did improve from a high of over 400ml/day at about 3 months out, to about 100ml/day when I decided to go ahead with the AdVance Sling.

My experience with that has been (finally) good, with 0 pads, and only the occasional urge leak. No more stress leaks at all.

http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1221982

15 grams/day? I would have killed for that this summer!
51 yrs old at diagnosis & surgery
Biopsy 6/20/2007, 2 of 10 cores positive, 9%, Gleason 3+3, PSA 2.5, up from 2.0 previous year.
DaVinci robotic at Duke Univ. Medical Center 10/3/2007 both nerves spared
post surgical PSA tests all < 0.1
AdVance Male Sling 08/25/2008 at Duke Univ. Medical Center

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