We may need drugs like Lupron(LHRH drugs) but know what is behind the scenes

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zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 1/4/2009 5:08 AM (GMT -7)   
I am not saying don't ever take this, although if we had more choices would even recommend that. It is a main stream used drug for alot of reasons, some decent, some indecent.
I also question very long useage as to bone density issues, memory loss and the other side effects we know about, and the recent article from John Hopkins research about failure side of hormone deprivation drugs (such as the aforementioned) does not help in endorsing long term useage either. But know these things about the industry:
 
Lupron lawsuits  (TAB or Abbott Co.)   www.hbsslaw.com/frontend?command=Lawsuit&task=vi
 
 
(google lupron lawsuits for more and the same as these)  (FYI-zoladex-Astrazeneca Mfg. lost lawsuits for same reasons also, I would rather give my money for using these drugs to them for being a little less outrageous, not that any of them are Saints)
 
Yeah we may have to use them anyway, I have used them for 2+ yrs., looks like a good protocol of drug in combo using it as ADT3 (lupron+casodex+proscar). Dr. Leibowitz  13 month protocol and then off of them and maintenance with proscar has value as a choice for us, with some very decent results, especially for the group of patients that fall in the most likely to be non-curative from traditional treatments, high stats-high gleasons-possible mets etc. Long term on such is worth alot of investigation as to its value to us  (we can see the value to the sellers), there are other drugs to consider, some I never mentioned yet on this board, they do exist and are almost never mentioned by uro-docs (for alot of reasons)but often mentioned by onco-docs whom actual know more about PCa overall anyway (such as Strum, Scholz, Meyers, Leibowitz, Barken etc.) Alot of these drugs can cost less or way less, can be very effective, can have alot of undesirable side effects too, some of these can be done on intermittent useage or give you 'holiday' from using them  (not a bad bonus-when side effects drag you to less than sanity at times). There are choices to be looked at and for long term I hope others start looking soon. Knowledge is power, know the forces that are working with you and against you or accept whatever is given out (like the righteous companies actions above). I wish the story was fiction, it is not.
 
(don't shoot the messenger- the PCa has done well enough at that)
 
N-Bob
 
 
 
 

zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 1/4/2009 5:28 AM (GMT -7)   
I noticed my links have some issues and one of them is about lawsuits for lupron that women have useage for there issues, yes women can be on this too.

GOOGLE IT DIRECTLY AND CLICK ON SITES MIGHT BE BEST (lawsuits-lupron or TAB, or zoladex same thing)

The info is available out there.
"Youth is wasted on the young"-W.C. Fields
 
"I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member"-Groucho Marx


divo
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 637
   Posted 1/4/2009 5:36 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for this Bob, Pete was on lupron for 14 months back in 2002. He is lined up for a hip replacement next week. I really think it is from the lupron he took years ago. Anyone on lupron should take extra Vitamin D and also calcium.....Pete did not do it at that time, but we have sinced learned how important it is. Di
Husband Pete
dx Jan 2001 gleason 4 + 3 PSA 16.5
Seed implant and conformal radiation and Lupron from Jan 2001 to Jan2002
2005 Dec PSA began to rise from .5 to 8 within 6 months
Salvage surgery at MSK 9/06 Dr. Eastham
Fistula operation 2/07 MSK Dr. Wong
Many cystoscopies and ER visits with strictures
Catheter for one year....Catheter taken out Sept 07..
Total Incontinence since then....
PSA .52 3/08
AUS Operation at MSK Sept 8 2008 Dr. Sandhu
Activated Oct 28th Dr. Sandhu..MSK
Some difficulty with AUS arising Nov 10 2008
Meeting with Dr. Sandhu to discuss AUS problems and new PSA test Dec 11, 2008
PSA .6 12/08
Waiting to see if AUS gets better results
Complete hip replacement surgery coming up Jan 9, 2009


Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 1/4/2009 8:41 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi Bob,
Unfortunately, where there are lawyers there are lawsuits. And I learned quite some time ago that anything can be litigated. Ask McDonalds. Try that same search with your preferred treatment option ~ DES or estrogen. The same sites show tons of information. It looks like www.annieappleseedproject.com feels that we should just die of prostate cancer. At least when you search any prostate cancer medication. Be cautious? Fine. Trust Lawyers before doctors? Not in my house.

LHRH agonists replaced estrogenic drugs for a reason ~ because over the long term the dangers are less.

BTW, You can search any medication in America and find a lawsuit. Try it. LOL. I did.

Tony
Age 46 (44 when Dx)
Pre-op PSA was 19.8
Surgery on Feb 16, 2007 @ The City of Hope
Post-Op Pathology: Gleason 4+3=7, positive margins, Extra Prostatic Extension (EPE)
Bilateral seminal vesicle invasion (SVI); Stage pT3b, N0, Mx
HT began in May, '07 with Lupron and Casodex 50mg (2 Year ADT)
IMRT radiation for 38 Treatments ending August 3, '07
Current PSA (September 17 '08): <0.1 ~ Undetectable!
 
You can visit my Journey at:
 
STAY POSITIVE!
 
 


zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 1/4/2009 9:12 AM (GMT -7)   
No arguement intended my brother, but estrogenic drugs were not cashing in on us in this process (biberies, kickbacks, overcharging, agendas etc.), all these drugs are still being used either here or abroad. We can have our differences and choices of intoxicating drugs. Anything can be sued for different reasons, some very reasonable and some trivial like McDonalds and hot coffee, etc.
 
Hey also I did say it is a useful drug, I used it also for 2 yrs.+ and might even use it again for short term (maybe), I am not against using those LHRH drugs, maybe longer term is problematic, I am definitively against any mfg. or method that is marketing and making excessive profits (cashin on us) and has no qualms about doing so, what do we will tell the people whom have no money....no lupron...no zoladex...or whom pays these expensive costs for such patients? Is caring for PCa only about money and profits/marketing or is it about possible results. These drugs have patents when they run out maybe competition will heat up:
The choices for LHRH right now:  Lupron, zoladex, trelstar LA, Viadur, Eligard
 
To block possible "flare when using those drugs"=  LHRH antagonists= Abarelix or Cetrotide
(another for flare prevention is casodex prior for around 10-14 days)
 
Main stream anti-androgen effective drugs (non LHRH)= Eulexin, casodex, nilandron, androcur (less costly and can be used in combo with LHRH drugs, casodex commonly used in combo for ADT3-also proscar or avodart used make '3')
 
Also useful main stream drugs are: proscar or avodart by lowering DHT 70-90% in blood  (DHT is the most potent testosterone conversion our bodies make from normal testosterone=fuels PCa) DHT is 5 times more potent growth stimulator than testosterone is.  (cut the fuel to PCa)
 
Secondline drugs semi-mainstream:  Nizoral; HDK or Ketoconazole (p450 enzyme inhibitors)
 
Secondline drugs maybe not mainstream in USA: DES, Honvan, Estradurin, Climara patch, estraderm patch, Stilphosterol, Emcyt, PC Spes(no longer sold atleast in USA)
 
Other useful (main stream) PCa drugs used on receptors:  Decadron, Hexadrol, Hydrocortisone, Prednisdone, Cytadren, Dostinex, Bromocriptine
 

There are other choices of drugs out there too, all should be looked at. In my case I also found the DES outperformed the ADT3 with alot of monitored psas and other oncologists markers for PCa testings, so that is why I will take my chances for survival as I see them and not as the friendly uro-doc whom wanted me on ADT for life. I'm glad there is no monopoly on choices.

Peace be with you- I respect your knowledge and helpfulness (hey even docs disgree on PCa issues) These are drugs in the know arsenal right now, they all have a possible use and function for us, and onco-doc might be able to assist one in this jungle.

Post Edited (zufus) : 1/4/2009 9:59:26 AM (GMT-7)


Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 1/4/2009 10:03 AM (GMT -7)   
You have invited the counterpoint. My doctor prescribed Lupron and Casodex I and I don't think he was bribed. Your argument is about money and conspiracy and not the treatment benefits of it. And there was a time when the same argument existed with DES until it became a generic, and they most absolutely were cashing in ~ and still are. Unfortunately lawsuits drive costs up in research thus costs of new drugs as well. Simple cause and effect. I don't challenge that there are options, but I don't believe that because DES is cheaper than Lupron that it is better or even it's equal. It may work for some and not others so well. The fact is that mortality rates are lower than when DES was a primary treatment option for prostate cancer. That can't be disputed. Early detection is the reason. Thus surgery and/or radiation in early stages makes sense and taking DES or LHRH agonists do not because we know eventually both will fail. Again that's early stages not advanced like you and me.

Because a Hyundai is cheaper than a Mercedes does not make it safer, better, faster, or nicer looking. Unfortunately, the town you live in is struggling in part because these cars are cheaper.

Back to my circumstances. I have insurance and I pay the same price as you do for DES. And if my insurance company could prove that DES is an equal to LHRH agonists they would drive their profits up by not covering the use of LHRH agonists. They have done that with my blood pressure meds and won't cover name brands where an equally effective generic is available.

Be careful about this stuff. We have new patients coming here and they should understand that there are many options. They should always question what drugs they take, that is good advice. But the price of drugs is not the lone factor for which one is the best to use. And if surgery can cure them, they shouldn't use DES for twenty years to avoid it.

Tony


Age 46 (44 when Dx)
Pre-op PSA was 19.8
Surgery on Feb 16, 2007 @ The City of Hope
Post-Op Pathology: Gleason 4+3=7, positive margins, Extra Prostatic Extension (EPE)
Bilateral seminal vesicle invasion (SVI); Stage pT3b, N0, Mx
HT began in May, '07 with Lupron and Casodex 50mg (2 Year ADT)
IMRT radiation for 38 Treatments ending August 3, '07
Current PSA (September 17 '08): <0.1 ~ Undetectable!
 
You can visit my Journey at:
 
STAY POSITIVE!
 
 

Post Edited (TC-LasVegas) : 1/4/2009 10:17:58 AM (GMT-7)


livinadream
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 1382
   Posted 1/4/2009 10:29 AM (GMT -7)   
Bob as with all people I certainly enjoy everyones point of view. So with all due respect I still do not know where you are coming from. As a person with Gleason 9 and mets I had to find trust somewhere for my own piece of mind. I did do my due diligence but not at the expense of confusing myself with all the points and counterpoints you bring up. I do think knowledge is power however I am not sure it is healthy to 2nd guess my treatment choice. ADT3 has so far worked for me and when I become refractory I will look back and be thankful for the drugs we have. I trust my doctor and together we discussed options, once they were discussed and agreed we took action. I can't look back Bob, I can only look ahead. I know you had many opinions as to your course of treatment, I personally think that is emotionally unhealthy. Why do I say that? I went for a second opinion after my radiation, and my fervent prayer was that I would not get a different diagnosis that forced me to choose. I was honestly looking for affirmation of what I already knew. Sometimes in life we have to trust and believe. That is what I have chosen to do as have many of our brothers here on HW.
I appreciate your views my friend as I hope you do mine.

peace and love
Dale
My PSA at diagnosis was 16.3
age 46 (current)
My gleason score from prostate was 4+5=9 and from the lymph nodes was 4+4=8
I had 44 IMRT's
Casodex
Currently on Lupron
I go to The Cancer Treatment Center of America
Married with two kids
latest PSA 5-27-08 0.11
PSA July 24th, 2008 is 0.04
PSA Dec 16th, 2008 is .06
Testosterone keeps rising, the current number is 156, up from 57 in May
cancer in 4 of 6 cores
92%
80%
37%
28%
 


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 1/4/2009 5:01 PM (GMT -7)   
DES has had its share of problems, for sure! I am one of the many, many, "DES" babies. Meaning my mother used DES back when they thought it would help pregnant women with mornign sickness or some such thing. The result is that it affected me, not her. 3 kids, 3 lost, 3 premies and a radical hester at 33. Each of my children have their own unique medical challenges. Who knows IF the DES had anything at all to do with it. No one seems to know the answer. Did the benefits outweigh the risk with my mother? Not in my opinion. Was it right for some? Perhaps but, they did stop using it for very long time because it presented with increased risks. The issue becomes whether the benefits outweigh the risks.
 
Swim
 
 


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 1/4/2009 10:09 PM (GMT -7)   
Andrew,

Even with the OhioState ..cough, U of M, cough cough....thing you got going on, you're a swimmer :>)
Chris started swimming at less than a year old but decided he liked soccer when he was 3. He switched from select soccer to swimming in 6th grade when bone tumors badly damaged his hip. He's still swimming at 20 with his best times in the fly and free. He's also been assisstant coaching middle school for a couple of years and works as a lifeguard / instructor. I'm thinking he's hooked for a lifetime! It's been such a good sport for him...and for you as well!

** OSU is a good facility with a lot of good treatment specialists. I wish you all the best. Stay with the swimming. So much evidence points to swimming as one of the best ways to help keep the mind and body strong.

Swim
 

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