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kwb
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 3/4/2009 8:38 PM (GMT -6)   
I am a new member with some concerns and wanted the advice of some of you who have experience. I was diagnosed by a homopathic doctor with prostate cancer based on the meridian stress assessment machine. I went to a regular MD and got psa test (.95) and then got a DRE. prostate was small and no abnormalities in keeping with low PSA #. I had a second psa test 3 months later and psa was .63.

I have read about the psa3 test spoken about at a conference in Florida in 2007. I am wondering if I should get this psa3 (urine test), or even if I should request a biopsy.

Cancer in my family, grandmother, mother, father, 2 uncles.

I am 56, good health, never a dr appointment, never even had a prescription yet.

Wanting to get advice from those who have been down this trail.

Thanks

stxdave
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 65
   Posted 3/4/2009 9:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi kwb,

I think I would ask for a do-over on the meridian stress assessment machine. It is just as likely there was a bad connection, a malfunction of the stress equipment, or human error in the interpretation as anything else.

Although the PSA test is not a black and white test, the two back to back tests you had is a pretty good indicator of a great prostate. At your age a reading of less than 1.0 is really good.

You should have a PSA test once a year just to stay on top of things. If there is an upward change you would want to get a test more often, as recommended by a urologist.

Go out and play.

Dave
Dx'd 1999, Age 60, PSA 43, Gleason (3+4=7), T3c
42-3d EBRT w/Lupron/Casodex for 24 months and PSA remaining to be <0.1 for the entire 24 month period.
July 2001 - 2nd opinion required to go intermittent ADT.
MDAnderson biopsy revised Gleason (4+5=9).
Intermittent ADT, Lupron only, with PSA threshhold established at 1.0.
March 2007 - Diminishing returns with Lupron, conferred with MDA urologist for bilateral orchiectomy. Uro asked for biopsy of prostate again. Biopsy resulted in tumors found with Gleason (5+4=9).
August 2007 - RRP and bilateral orchiectomy. PSA <0.1
99% continent immediately
September 2008 - PSA 0.45
November 2008 - PSA 0.67
December 2008 - Resume Casodex
December 2008 - Stricture in bladder neck requiring surgical removal. 99% incontinent immediately.


Life is not waiting for the storm to pass, it's learning to dance in the rain.


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 3/5/2009 12:07 AM (GMT -6)   
KWB,

I Don't know if your homeopath is an M.D. or D.O (ours is and M.D.) but there appears to be enough concern on your part to warrent a consult with a urologist. Perhaps this would help ease your mind.

We've used a homeopath/naturalpath for many years and no third head has popped up. Doc C. always sends us to the appropriate physcian when the need arises. I have the highest regards for alternatives in the context in which they best serve our health care needs. Our family physician is a valuable member of our team.

Swim
 


kwb
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 3/5/2009 12:43 AM (GMT -6)   
Thank you guys for the input. Selmer, my father died of lung cancer (smoked for 60 years), but my mothers brother died of prostate cancer last november. Hence my concern. His son, my first cousin has prostate cancer and has done the radium seed implant. He is five years older than I am.

The homeopathic Dr I see has in fact had some great results with cancer victims. Personal friends I know very well were sent home to die from MD Anderson, (given 6 months), and have completely recovered on this doctors regimen. Md Anderson has given them a clean bill of health. I am not defending her, just saying why I even give her credibility. I am personally acquainted with three people with at least two diagnoses from cancer centers that are healthy and cancer free after her regimen.

Her contention is that the MSA test picks up cancer at the cellular level before it shows up in other blood or serum tests. I also read that some men have Prostate cancer and have a low PSA. I am trying to be proactive and careful just to make sure.

Again, thanks for all the input.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25382
   Posted 3/5/2009 9:07 AM (GMT -6)   
so kwb,

what does this homeopathic dr. do that is different with these patients?
Age 56, 56 at DX, PSA 7/7 5.8, 7/8 12.3,9/8 14.5
3rd Biopsy Sept 08: Positive 7 of 7 cores, 40-90%, Gleason 7, 4+3
Open RP surgery 11/14/8, Right nerves spared, 4 days hospital, staples out 11/24/8, 5th cath out on 1/19/9
Post-surgery Pathlogy Report:Gleason 3+4=7, pT2c, 42 grm, tumor 20%, Contained in capsular, clear margins, clear lymph nodes 
First PSA Post Surgery   2/9 .05, 6 month on 5/9
 
 


BillyMac
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1858
   Posted 3/5/2009 9:17 AM (GMT -6)   
My first move if I were you would be to dispense with the quacks and their pseudo-science quackery. Base your thoughts on sound medical and scientific principles. On one hand a quack with an airy-fairy electrical device makes a decision about your state of health and gives you a diagnosis of cancer. On the other hand a trained medical professional gives you the result of a blood test which shows low PSA for your age and a physical that indicates no irregularities are felt on your prostate. Who you should believe is a no-brainer. Don't accept the mumbo-jumbo about about "picking up cancer at the cellular level before it shows up in other blood or serum tests", but ask precisely how it accomplishes this and then watch the fast shoe shuffle. Rejoice in your good health.

Bill
1/05 PSA----2.9 3/06-----3.2 3/07-------4.1 5/07------3.9 All negative DREs
Aged 59 when diagnosed
Biopsy 6/07
4 of 10 cores positive for Adenocarcinoma-------bummer!
Core 1 <5%, core 2----50%, core 3----60%, core 4----50%
Biopsy Pathologist's comment:
Gleason 4+3=7 (80% grade 4) Stage T2c
Neither extracapsular nor perineural invasion is identified
CT scan and Bone scan show no evidence of metastases
Da Vinci RP Aug 10th 2007
Post-op pathology:
Positive for perineural invasion and 1 small focal extension
Negative at surgical margins, negative node and negative vesicle involvement
Some 4+4=8 identified ........upgraded to Gleason 8
PSA Oct 07 <0.1 undetectable
PSA Jan 08 <0.1 undetectable
PSA April 08 <0.001 undetectable (disregarded due to lab "misreporting")
PSA August 08 <0.001 undetectable (disregarded due to lab "misreporting")
Post-op pathology rechecked by new lab:
Gleason downgraded to 4+3=7
Focal extension comprised of grade 3 cells
PSA September 08 <0.01 (new lab)
PSA February 09 <0.01


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25382
   Posted 3/5/2009 9:23 AM (GMT -6)   
Bill,that was what was confusing me with the poster's previous posts, I had never heard of any of these "methods" before, thought I was in the dark.

David
Age 56, 56 at DX, PSA 7/7 5.8, 7/8 12.3,9/8 14.5
3rd Biopsy Sept 08: Positive 7 of 7 cores, 40-90%, Gleason 7, 4+3
Open RP surgery 11/14/8, Right nerves spared, 4 days hospital, staples out 11/24/8, 5th cath out on 1/19/9
Post-surgery Pathlogy Report:Gleason 3+4=7, pT2c, 42 grm, tumor 20%, Contained in capsular, clear margins, clear lymph nodes 
First PSA Post Surgery   2/9 .05, 6 month on 5/9
 
 


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 3/5/2009 10:21 AM (GMT -6)   
Bill,

Don't dismiss what you know nothing about. My husband has had complimentary cancer treatment as has my closest friend who is currently finishing her last radiation treatment with not a bit of burn. I use a natural medication that frankly, keeps me ALIVE, because I am unable to safely take anything else. So what does one do when traditional methods are as deadly as the disease if left untreated? Dispense with the quackery and make plans to be one with mother earth? We use more alternatives than we do traditional remedies but realize, like all things, there are limits.

I've seen more instances of 'professionals" who have all the bells and whistles kill, or contribute to the death of a whole lot of people in my field. Trust me...it only takes a split second incorrect decision to manage death. Incorrect does not make it wrong in most cases though. Since medicine is not an exact science there will be those misses on occasion. There have been quite a few men in here over the last 4 years who, in my opinion, may not be making the right decision based on their clinical diagnosis but, it is their body and their decision. I think radiating/subjecting one's body with unecessary testing for example, is stupid. But, if it makes a person feel more confident and lets a him/her rest easy...go for it! The radiation is only affecting the body at its cellular level ; >)

Swim
 


kwb
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 3/5/2009 11:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Good Morning guys. I just got up and read your replies, west coast time :-) believe me, some of your thoughts are mine every day! I go around and around whether I should listen to someone who is not mainstream medical personnel. On the other hand people I know, and have known for years are diagnosed by places like M D Anderson, sent home to die, and today are confirmed cancer free.

Her premise is that your body was designed to heal itself when your immune system is at full function. She prescribes products to that end, and has had some great success. Time magazine and even UCLA recently commented that the future of medicine is pointing toward preventive medicine for the wave of the future.

So again, I am not defending her, only giving my thoughts as to why I have even listened to her "diagnosis" :-)

I plan to keep checking my psa every 6 months, even though the doctor said once a year. I am trying to decide whether or not to do the psa3 urine test or request a biopsy.

Will a doctor do a biopsy if I request one?

I appreciate your posts.......thanks

Tudpock18
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 4240
   Posted 3/5/2009 11:28 AM (GMT -6)   

Dear kwb:

I will refrain from criticizing alternative therapies as there is probably a place for them in certain situations.  But, I must admit, my sympathies on this subject lie more along the lines of what Selmer and BillyMac said.

In any case, there is certainly no scientific evidence that this machine can diagnose prostate cancer and I would doubt that most medical professional, homeopathic or not, would make such a claim.

Your stats are excellent and I would certainly not recommend subjecting yourself to a biopsy with these results.  If you are worried, however, why not make an appointment with a urologist and discuss the issue.  Perhaps PSA testing and a DRE every 6 months would make you more comfortable...

If had been me with those stats I would have been rejoicing and PCa would have been the last thing on my mind...

Tudpock


Age 62
Gleason 4 +3 = 7
T1C
PSA 4.2
2 of 16 cores cancerous
27cc
Brachytherapy December 9, 2008.  73 Iodine-125 seeds.  Procedure went great, catheter out before I went home, only minor discomfort.  Regular activities resumed, everything continues to function normally as of 1/31/09.


usmc155
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 22
   Posted 3/5/2009 11:34 AM (GMT -6)   
Personally, a biop I do not recommend. If your PSA levels are on the rise then I would get other opinions. They say although the urine (PSA) tests are not conclusive they are one darn good start. DO the urine PSA now....

hb2006
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 299
   Posted 3/5/2009 11:45 AM (GMT -6)   
kwb

I would skip the biopsy unless you really want that pain. The one that I had, also gave me a hemorrhoid which I never had before. The results were pretty much as expected. My PSA had jumped in a year and the DRE confirmed a nodule/lump. 6 of the 12 cores were positive, with a Gleason of 8 and 9. My father was diagnosed at the age of 70. A cousin on my mother's side beat me on the surgery by one year but he is 5 years younger.
Age 60
PSA 2007 4.1
PSA 2008 10.0
Diagnosed April 2008
Biopsy: 6 of 12 cores positive
Gleason 4 + 5 = 9
CT and Bone Scan negative
Open surgery at Shawnee Mission Medical Center May 21, 2008
Right side nerves spared
Radical prostatectomy and lymph node dissection
Cather removed on June 3rd, totally dry on July 9th
pT2c
lymph nodes negative
PSA Sept 28, 2008 0.00
PSA Jan 22, 2009 0.00


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 3/5/2009 3:03 PM (GMT -6)   
What's to criticize? Homeopathy and traditional medicine are meant to compliment each other.

I'd prefer to consult a urologist myself. Ya don't see a mechanic to fix a stove and you wouldn't see a dentist for a broken arm (I wouldn't want my dentist to check out my stove either!!). Urologists specialize in prostate problems....makes good sense to seek the advise of one who would know better than anyone else about a prostate concern.

With a family history like your KWB, seek prevention and hope to avert. Thujia, carcinosin, modified citrus pectin, I can think of a couple of other remedies. Oh heck...do what you believe is healthy and best for you! Good luck and be well.

Swim
 


LV-TX
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 966
   Posted 3/5/2009 3:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Swim...you made me laugh...just the thought of a dentist and a DRE or a stove for that matter....gave me a chuckle

Now I also agree...the holistic approach and traditional therapies do go hand in hand...you must look at both for any given situation. I have seen too many people put their cancer in remission using the alternative therapies (my sister for one) to not believe they have their merit. But...it still needs the advice and treatment through traditional methods as well for them to be totally effective.
You are beating back cancer, so hold your head up with dignity
 
Les
 
Age 58 at Diagnosis
Oct 2006 - PSA 2.6 - DRE Normal
May 2008 - PSA 4.6 - DRE Normal / TRUS normal-Gland 38 cc
July 2008 - Biopsy 4 of 12 Positive 5 - 30% Involved Bilateral (Perineural Invasion present at base) - Gleason (3+3) 6  Stage T1C
August 23 - Bone Scan - Hips, Spine and ribs marked uptake - X-Ray showed clear -Hooray
Sept 9 2nd DRE - questionable - TRUS...shadow in base - Gland now 41 cc
Robotic Surgery Sept 18, 2008
Pathology October 1, 2008 - Gleason 7 (4+3) Staged pT2c NO MX - Gland 50 cc
Seminal Vesicles and Lymph Nodes clear
Positive Margins Right Posterior Lobe
4 tumors in prostate - largest being 6 cm 
PSA 5 week Oct 2008 <.05
       3 month Jan 2009 .06


BillyMac
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1858
   Posted 3/5/2009 4:13 PM (GMT -6)   
Swim,
With all due respect there is no mention of scorn of natural remedies in my post. As a matter of fact if you do a search you will find that on more than one occasion I have defended use of some of these remedies and treatments as well as having personal issues with some medical "professionals". After all, many modern medicines are based on folklore and traditional treatments. This does not mean that I accept the beliefs held and practised by millions that powdered tiger penis will help a sagging libido or crushed tiger bone will allay the "rheumatiz". Nor do I accept that there are rivers of Chi coursing through my body which must be kept aligned and in balance to ensure my good health. There is no doubt that the belief that something is good for you can have a beneficial effect on your wellbeing (as has been demonstrated many times). But that is a far cry from claims that this piece of electronic rubbish "detects cancer at the cellular level"
www.wnyinsurance-quote.com/html/photo_of_meridian_stress_machi.html
Kwb,
With your family history I would keep a close watch as has been suggested but no doctor worth his salt would do a biopsy on you given those to date results.
Bill
1/05 PSA----2.9 3/06-----3.2 3/07-------4.1 5/07------3.9 All negative DREs
Aged 59 when diagnosed
Biopsy 6/07
4 of 10 cores positive for Adenocarcinoma-------bummer!
Core 1 <5%, core 2----50%, core 3----60%, core 4----50%
Biopsy Pathologist's comment:
Gleason 4+3=7 (80% grade 4) Stage T2c
Neither extracapsular nor perineural invasion is identified
CT scan and Bone scan show no evidence of metastases
Da Vinci RP Aug 10th 2007
Post-op pathology:
Positive for perineural invasion and 1 small focal extension
Negative at surgical margins, negative node and negative vesicle involvement
Some 4+4=8 identified ........upgraded to Gleason 8
PSA Oct 07 <0.1 undetectable
PSA Jan 08 <0.1 undetectable
PSA April 08 <0.001 undetectable (disregarded due to lab "misreporting")
PSA August 08 <0.001 undetectable (disregarded due to lab "misreporting")
Post-op pathology rechecked by new lab:
Gleason downgraded to 4+3=7
Focal extension comprised of grade 3 cells
PSA September 08 <0.01 (new lab)
PSA February 09 <0.01

Post Edited (BillyMac) : 3/5/2009 2:27:41 PM (GMT-7)


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25382
   Posted 3/5/2009 5:22 PM (GMT -6)   
All things are possible, and no one person has all the answers, but I tend to think along the lines of Billy Mac, Tudpock, and Selmer. I do not believe for one minute that this alledged machine can detect or define cancers, something is not right in that story. Sounds like snake oil peddling in high tech form. Whatever works for a person, as long as they are comfortable and its right in their mind and heart, then so be it, its their life and their body and their decision.

David in sC
Age 56, 56 at DX, PSA 7/7 5.8, 7/8 12.3,9/8 14.5
3rd Biopsy Sept 08: Positive 7 of 7 cores, 40-90%, Gleason 7, 4+3
Open RP surgery 11/14/8, Right nerves spared, 4 days hospital, staples out 11/24/8, 5th cath out on 1/19/9
Post-surgery Pathlogy Report:Gleason 3+4=7, pT2c, 42 grm, tumor 20%, Contained in capsular, clear margins, clear lymph nodes 
First PSA Post Surgery   2/9 .05, 6 month on 5/9
 
 


CPA
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 655
   Posted 3/5/2009 6:30 PM (GMT -6)   

Greetins, KWB.  Welcome to the forum.  Your comment about your father dieing of lung cancer after smoking for 60 years reminds me of the guy who was celebrating his 100th birthday and the reporter asked him what he attributed his long life to and he said when he was 80 he quit smoking and drinking.  And then he added now if we could just get Dad to quit!

I don't know anything about the machine you referred to nor do I know anything about the processes you mention.  I tend to agree with Swim - whatever you do on a routine basis when you have a particular issue come up you go see a specialist.  I would heartily recommend you see a urologist - this is their specialty and if you don't have cancer - great.  If you do need more tests they can see that you get them.  It is better to get the best advise from a specialist and go from there. 

Best wishes!  David


Age 55
Diagnosed Dec 2007 during annual routine physical
PSA doubled from previous year from 1.5 to 3.2
12 biopsies - 2 positive with 2 marginal
Gleason 3 + 3 = 6
RRP 4 Feb 08
Both nerves spared
Good pathology - no margins - all encapsulated - Gleason 4 + 3 = 7
Catheter out Feb 13 - wore pad for couple of days - pad free Feb 16
Great wife and family who take very good care of me


kwb
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 3/5/2009 6:39 PM (GMT -6)   
I want to say thanks for each and every post. Your posts are helping me sort through all this. I am going to my MD on monday with a friend and his wife who just had the psa3 test and is going to get the doctor's opinion. I think I will take the results the homeopathic doctor gave me from the four tests she has done and explain it all to him and see what he thinks.

I do agree with the concept of listening to a specialist who does this kind of thing all day every day. This prostate doctor I will see monday is the pioneer in the robotic surgery in my area (Seattle/Tacoma). I will seek his opinion and go with that.

Again, to just say thanks seems pretty inadequate to all of you for taking the time to post, but it sure is helping me.

KWB
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