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califguy
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 72
   Posted 10/16/2009 10:39 PM (GMT -6)   
My friend asked his surgeon, "How did you get experience?" His reply was after he was out of training and on his own with the DaVinci, he only operated on men at least 70 years old. After 500 he started on others and now is near 2000. He felt the older men could have done nothing and probably would have died of other causes. But this way he got training and they got the benefit of the cancer being gone.

califguy
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 72
   Posted 10/16/2009 10:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Nice... I thought I was adding this to another post.... One that was discussing an article about Robotic Surgery........

Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 10/16/2009 10:57 PM (GMT -6)   
Did he tell your why the doctor would admit to this approach? Certainly not a good thing for a doctor to say.

Tony
Age 47 (44 when Dx)
Pre-op PSA was 19.8 : Surgery at The City of Hope on February 16, 2007
Gleason 4+3=7, Stage pT3b, N0, Mx
Positive Margins (PM), Extra Prostatic Extension (EPE) : Bilateral Seminal vesicle invasion (SVI)
Hormone Therapy May '07 to September '09 ~ Currently off.
IMRT radiation for 38 Treatments ending August 3, '07
Current PSA (October 7, 2009): <0.1

My Journal is at
My InfoLink page is at Tony's Prostate Cancer InfoLink Page

STAY POSITIVE!


John T
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4269
   Posted 10/17/2009 10:27 AM (GMT -6)   
Doesn't sound very ethical to operate on men over 70. I wouldn't trust this doctor to treat me as he puts his own interests ahead of his patient's.
JohnT

64 years old.

PSA rising for 10 years to 40, free psa 10-15. Had 5 urologists, 12 biopsies and MRIS all neg. Doctors DXed BPH and continue to get biopsies yearly. 13th biopsy positive in 10-08, 2 cores of 25, G6 less than 5%. Scheduled for surgery as recommended by Urological Oncologist.

2nd Opinion from Dr Sholtz, a Prostate Oncologist, said DX wrong, pathology shows indolant cancer, but psa history indicates large cancer or metastasis. Futher tests and Color Doppler confirmed large transition zone tumor that 13 biopsies and MRIS missed. G7, 4+3, approx 16mmX18mm.

Combidex MRI in Holland eliminated lymphnode mets. Casodex and Proscar reduced psa to 0.6 and prostate from 60mm to 32mm. Changed diet, no meat and dairy. All staging tests indicate that tumor is local and non agressive. (PAP, PCA3, MRIS, Color Doppler, Combidex, tumor reaction to diet and Casodex, and tumor location in transition zone). Surgery a poor option because tumor is located next to the urethea and positive margin is very likely; permanent incontenance is also high probability with surgery.

Seed implants on 5-19-09, 3 hours door to door, no pain, minor side affects are frequency and urgency; very controlable with Flowmax and lasted 4 weeks. Daily activities resumed day after implants with no restrictions. Gold markers implanted with seeds to guide IMRT.

25 treatments of IMRT 6 weeks after seed implants. No side affects at all.

PSA at end of treatment 0.02 mostly the result of Casodex. When I stop Casodex next week expect PSA to rise. Next PSA in November. Treatments and side affects have greatly exceeded my expectations. Glad to have this 11 year journey finally conclude.

JohnT


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 10/17/2009 4:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Sounds really cold and without any ethics. If I were thsi doctor, I don't think I would be telling people about that. He had no right to use these elderly men as training fodder.

David in SC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/09 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/09 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 - out  38 days, 9/14/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl.agree to start radiation, mapping on 9/21/9, 9/24 - mtg with uro/surg, 9/29- pre-op, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - suprapubic cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sessions/72 gys.


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 10/17/2009 4:58 PM (GMT -6)   
You fellows make it seem like this doc hoodwinked and dragged into his surgeries victims who couldn't defend or decide for themselves. I am sure these guys was aware they were getting robotic surgery from a younger doctor and I am sure they had ample opportunity to do DD about it. I really don't think there was any unethical behavior. Rather, I think it says a lot as to the doc deciding he would limit his initial surgeries to older men, rather than men who were much younger and had a lot more to risk in terms of ed and continence issues in failures.
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 10/17/2009 5:20 PM (GMT -6)   
I rarely would disagree with you, James, on any issue here, but I strongly and respectfully disagree with you on this one.

David in SC

Still a form of "playing God" in my mind set.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/09 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/09 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 - out  38 days, 9/14/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl.agree to start radiation, mapping on 9/21/9, 9/24 - mtg with uro/surg, 9/29- pre-op, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - suprapubic cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sessions/72 gys.


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 10/17/2009 6:34 PM (GMT -6)   
David, disagreement noted.... smilewinkgrin tongue turn shocked devil cool Seriously, those gold standard surgeon do have to get their experience somewhere to reach the 1000 and 2000 levels. I am sure they don't get there by operating on cadavers and pig carcasses. turn
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 10/17/2009 6:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Of course James, they have to get their experience patient by patient. But segregating one's learning curve to the elderly, to me, and perhaps just me, is one step away from say, let's experiment our surgical skills on the homeless and prisoners, because they have nothing to lose.

I just view each life in the world of equal value and worth.

David in SC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/09 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/09 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 - out  38 days, 9/14/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl.agree to start radiation, mapping on 9/21/9, 9/24 - mtg with uro/surg, 9/29- pre-op, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - suprapubic cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sessions/72 gys.


John T
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4269
   Posted 10/17/2009 7:36 PM (GMT -6)   
James,
Most doctors would agree that surgery would not be the first option for anyone older than 70, especially when radiaton is available. Most surgeons refer their older patients to radiologsts. Surgery is very hard on older patients and prone to serious complications.
JT

64 years old.

PSA rising for 10 years to 40, free psa 10-15. Had 5 urologists, 12 biopsies and MRIS all neg. Doctors DXed BPH and continue to get biopsies yearly. 13th biopsy positive in 10-08, 2 cores of 25, G6 less than 5%. Scheduled for surgery as recommended by Urological Oncologist.

2nd Opinion from Dr Sholtz, a Prostate Oncologist, said DX wrong, pathology shows indolant cancer, but psa history indicates large cancer or metastasis. Futher tests and Color Doppler confirmed large transition zone tumor that 13 biopsies and MRIS missed. G7, 4+3, approx 16mmX18mm.

Combidex MRI in Holland eliminated lymphnode mets. Casodex and Proscar reduced psa to 0.6 and prostate from 60mm to 32mm. Changed diet, no meat and dairy. All staging tests indicate that tumor is local and non agressive. (PAP, PCA3, MRIS, Color Doppler, Combidex, tumor reaction to diet and Casodex, and tumor location in transition zone). Surgery a poor option because tumor is located next to the urethea and positive margin is very likely; permanent incontenance is also high probability with surgery.

Seed implants on 5-19-09, 3 hours door to door, no pain, minor side affects are frequency and urgency; very controlable with Flowmax and lasted 4 weeks. Daily activities resumed day after implants with no restrictions. Gold markers implanted with seeds to guide IMRT.

25 treatments of IMRT 6 weeks after seed implants. No side affects at all.

PSA at end of treatment 0.02 mostly the result of Casodex. When I stop Casodex next week expect PSA to rise. Next PSA in November. Treatments and side affects have greatly exceeded my expectations. Glad to have this 11 year journey finally conclude.

JohnT


Worried Guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 3742
   Posted 10/17/2009 7:46 PM (GMT -6)   
It's simple math. If a doc does 1000 and we think fewer than 200 is "beginner" then 20% of all his surgeries are in the "beginner" range. Everyone wants to be patient 500-700 but that's not possible either.
Personally until they implant an prostatectodometer onto the surgeons' foreheads I don't trust the numbers one bit.
I will trust the OR nurse who says Dr Smith does 2 per day and does surgery on Tuesdays. He's been at the hospital for 2 years. That's my number.
Jeff
DX Age 56. First routine PSA test on April 8th: 17.8.
May PSA: 22.6, 3 weeks later: PSA: 23.2.
Biopsy 6/10/09: 7/12 scores positive, Gleason 6=3+3. Bone scan and C/T scan negative.
RP DaVinci -7/21/2009 @ Univ of Roch Medical Center
Left nerve gone, right partial spared.
Catheter removed - 7/31/2009 Pathology report received:
Gleason 3+4=7 Tumor size: 2.5 x 1.8 cm location: both lobes and apex. No Malignancy in Seminal Vesicle, vasa deferentia, lymph nodes 0/13
Extraprostatic extension present; Perineural invasion: present, extensive
Prostate mass 56 grams. Pathologic Stage: pT3aN0MX
Post Surgery Status:
Potency - 10/05 10 weeks, Still no activity
Incontinence - 8/20 4 full pads per day
. 9/7 3-4 full pads per day (I'm going to try cutting down on fluids. Bad idea. I know.)
9/17 2 months: Still 3 pads per day.
10/5 10 weeks: Still 3 pads per day. At this rate I'll be fine in 2012.
Post Surgery PSA - 9/3 6 weeks- 0.05, 10/13 3 months- 0.004 undetectable.


Ed C. (Old67)
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 2461
   Posted 10/17/2009 8:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Oh boy! I'm glad I'm not 70 and he is not my doctor.
Age: 67 at Dx on 12/30/08
PSA 9/05 1.15; 8/06 1.45; 12/07 2.41; 8/08 3.9; 11/08 3.5 free PSA 11%
2 cores out of 12 were positive Gleason (4+4) and (4+5)
Negative CT scan and bone scan done on 1/16
Robotic surgery performed 2/9/09 Dr Fagin, Austin TX
Pathology report:
Prostate weighed 57 grams size:5.2 x 5.0 x 4.9 cm
Posterior lateral lesions measuring 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.0 cm showing focal capsular penetration over a distance of 3mm.
Prostatic adenocarciroma accounts for approx. 10-20% of the hemisphere.
Gleason 4+4
both nerve bundles removed,
pT3a Nx Mx, Negative margins
seminal vesicles clean, lymph nodes: not dissected
continent after 4 months
8 weeks PSA test 4/7/09 result <0.1
5 months PSA test 7/9/09 result <0.1


brainsurgeon
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 137
   Posted 10/18/2009 9:22 AM (GMT -6)   
I am 70 and was told that I was on the "border". "Border" my a**! As a surgeon, there was no option for me to consider. I wanted that baby outta there ASAP. Two urologists (one the robot guy) asked me more than once. At 70, I cannot say the operation was a snap. It gave me about 20 minutes of grief, but I would do it again in a New York minute!
70 years old USA citizen
Prostatic carcinoma dxed June 2009 by PSA (7.0) and then Bx
PSAs yearly since 2001 ranged 1.52 to 7.0
Neg. CT and BS
4 of 8 biopsies positive (all right side) Gleason Score 3+4=7
Robotic assisted total prostatectomy and node excision July 2009 in Luzern, Switzerland by Dr. Mattei in the Kantonsspital
pT2c G3 pN0 (0/14)
Catheter out in 5 days (home in 3 days)
No incontinence
Potency: beginning tumescence??? at 3 weeks post-op. Still happens at 3 months PO
3month PSA less than 0.01


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 10/18/2009 9:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Curious, just 20 minutes of grief? At what point did you feel that small amount of grief? Trying to figure that out.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/09 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/09 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 - out  38 days, 9/14/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl.agree to start radiation, mapping on 9/21/9, 9/24 - mtg with uro/surg, 9/29- pre-op, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - suprapubic cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sessions/72 gys.


brainsurgeon
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 137
   Posted 10/19/2009 1:21 AM (GMT -6)   
20 minutes is a figure of speech meaning that I had no real pain, the bowel kicked off right away, the catheter was not a bother, and after it came out, there was no incontinence. If I took a finger and pushed on a wound site, it was a little sore. That said, I did have a b*tch of a time with a stretch injury to the nerves to my right leg. It is about gone now.
70 years old USA citizen
Prostatic carcinoma dxed June 2009 by PSA (7.0) and then Bx
PSAs yearly since 2001 ranged 1.52 to 7.0
Neg. CT and BS
4 of 8 biopsies positive (all right side) Gleason Score 3+4=7
Robotic assisted total prostatectomy and node excision July 2009 in Luzern, Switzerland by Dr. Mattei in the Kantonsspital
pT2c G3 pN0 (0/14)
Catheter out in 5 days (home in 3 days)
No incontinence
Potency: beginning tumescence??? at 3 weeks post-op. Still happens at 3 months PO
3month PSA less than 0.01


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 10/19/2009 7:26 AM (GMT -6)   
Got you know, lol, I took it in a literal sense. Otherwise, you virtually had zero problems with the whole thing, which I find amazing. Glad it worked that way for you.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/09 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/09 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 - out  38 days, 9/14/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl.agree to start radiation, mapping on 9/21/9, 9/24 - mtg with uro/surg, 9/29- pre-op, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - suprapubic cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sessions/72 gys.

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