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VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 6:52 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi all,
Been a very long time since I have posted. Sometimes I just don't get on here because it can be so difficult with all of the memories of what everyone is going through. Kent is doing well. Just passed 1 year and 8 months with a new 0 report.
I have a question for those of you who use Trimex or any of the meds that require a needle. Kent has used the regular needles before but they are very hard for him to use. It's just not been easy for him. We have so many life changes going on right now, it seems to take the back burner and then nothing gets done. I thought I read on here a few times that some of you use the Diabetic needles because they are shorter, easier and quicker. Kent asked his doctor yesterday and was told they are not available to the public. Can we get these any other way? Any help with this would be sooo appreciated. This doctor is not the one that did the surgery. His original doctor went on to head up a cancer center here in Va and is unreachable. This also has kept Kent from asking too many questions because he is frustrated. They gave him another rectal exam yesterday which took him completely off guard and upset him terribly.Why is this needed now? I'm just rambling as I do sometimes when looking for answers.
Thank you so much for any answers.
Cindy
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4848
   Posted 12/10/2009 7:27 AM (GMT -6)   
I use syringes maked as "Insulin Syringes." And they come with my Trimix.
 
They are length = 12.7mm
gauge = 30G
The needles are pretty darn short...Have you ever asked your local pharmacy about getting different one? Or even asked the place where you get your Trimax from?


Age 54   - 5'11"   205lbs
Overall Heath Condition - Good
PSA - July 2007 & Jan 2008 -> 1.3
Biopsy - 03/04/08 -> Gleason 6 
06/25/08 - Da Vinci robotic laparoscopy
05/14/09  - 4th Quarter PSA -> less then .01
11/20/09 - 18 Month PSA -> less then .01
Surgeon - Keith A. Waguespack, M.D.


VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 7:42 AM (GMT -6)   
We were told we couldn't get them without a script from the doctor. We have the trimix mixed at a special pharmacy, the only one we know of in Richmond, they said they aren't available to us unless the doctor said we could have them. Maybe we need to mail order?
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


Navyman
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 22
   Posted 12/10/2009 9:24 AM (GMT -6)   
While I can't guarantee the accuracy of this list you might find it helpful:

http://www.isletsofhope.com/diabetes/state-law/state-prescription-laws.html

Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4848
   Posted 12/10/2009 9:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Go back and tell your stupid DOCTOR that the needles are avaiable to the public as long as the public has a prescription form their doctor.

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 12/10/2009 11:05 AM (GMT -6)   
First, a doctor who writes a script for Trimix, but refuses to do one for needles has some really weird thinking on there. Second, the compounding pharmacy who filled the trimix should have given or offered to sell you the needles for using the drug. I suppose both the doc and oharmacist think you need to just drink it or rub it in or something. Third, you can order insulin syringes online, I've done so. You want to get 31 ga./ 5/16 inch/ either .5cc or 1.0cc diabetic insulin syringes. That's the smallest available and the least painful, if there is even any pain, to use. Go back to the doctor and demand a prescription, it's no skin off his back to do it.

He received a DRE because a good doctor will still be feeling for abnormalities in the tissue, for lumps, inflammation, etc, as well as regrowth of anything. It's a normal part of after care and I'm sorry it took him by surprise. Probably 90% of us here get them regularly after surgery, so he might as well steel himself to them... smilewinkgrin
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 12/10/2009 11:09 AM (GMT -6)   
Cindy, if he needs some info on making the best use of the trimix, there's several good threads here I can post, or you/he can contact me or others by email, probably, to discuss techniques, etc.
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN


creed_three
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 762
   Posted 12/10/2009 11:21 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Cindy,
Good to hear you have some options re. the type of needle. My mother has the same problem as she has a condition which requires monthly injections which my dad gives her (and has for 40 years!). Sometimes it makes no sense with the trouble she has had getting these sorts of essential items when various pharmacists or docs leave and others take over.
Once you have an understanding person who can organise what you want and need now, hopefully this will ease off. I hope things settle down. It is really great to hear of another zero - but you sound really flat, so I hope you can get some answers and also time for yourself (I have always wanted about a 30 hour day!) amid all the changes and busy times. Lots of people come in and out and I have had times when I just can't face reading things (overload) - I think the emotional recovery takes a long time - as you said, there is always a lot to fit in and remember, while life continues unabated. Take care & best wishes to Kent. Lana
Creed_three (Lana) - with husband "CJ" now aged 52 yrs (49 years at diagnosis).
PSA (2002) 2.1. (2006) 3.5.  1 x 5% core of 12 positive at biopsy. Open Radical Prostatectomy with nerve sparing April 2007 Sydney, Australia. Gleeson 3 + 4 = 7. 2 small multifocal lesions. Contained. Undetectable <.1 PSA since: June 2007-0.01, Oct 2007-0.02, April 2008-0.02: Oct 2008-0.03, Nov, 2008-0.02, April 2009-0.03. Next PSA April 2010.


Kirk_B
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 31
   Posted 12/10/2009 12:55 PM (GMT -6)   
I live in Florida and use bimix. The insulin syringes came with the Bimix from the compounding lab.
I told the compounding lab not to send the syringes as in Florida I can buy them from my pharmacy for less cost.
If you can't get them in your state have a doctor write a perscription for them.

VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 1:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you Steve, James, Navy and Lana. James, I would love the links especially if we can't get the other needles. I will try the link posted and see if I can get them. Steve, you made me laugh when you called him a STUPID doctor. I needed that. That is exactly how Kent thinks. He doesn't feel comfortable in this practice anymore. He wouldn't even go get his PSA until I made the appt. and made him go. And Lana, I'm trying... I really am. Hard to see my husband so down about this. He feels that the doctor is working against him. If the doc says its not available he just accepts it. If I had been there, I would have taken it further. James, email if you have suggestions or where I can get them. You all are my heros. Always, always here whenever I call.
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 12/10/2009 1:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Cindy,
Here's the links:

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1620929

Here's the place I used to buy mine:

www.allegromedical.com/syringes-c570/ultra-fine-syringe-short-p191848.html?engine=froogle&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=feed&CS_003=9164468&CS_010=8ab281020bb66dff010bb67e3cfc5638

You can call their 800 number and ask if they ship to VA.
That's for the 31ga. 5/16inch (8mm) 1cc. insulin syringes. Click the litttle ladder link and select them. I'd advise to also get the alcohol preps, as they are dirt cheap and free shipping. If they for some reason won't ship to your state (VA?), email me....

Kent, if you need technique or coaching, email me... smilewinkgrin I just noticed I'm one state over to the lower left. wink
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN

Post Edited (James C.) : 12/10/2009 11:30:30 AM (GMT-7)


VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 1:47 PM (GMT -6)   
James,
Are these the auto inject needles? Those are the ones that I heard were not as painful cause it was just a quick injection.
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 12/10/2009 1:56 PM (GMT -6)   
No, these are the manual stick and press kind. I've never tried the auto-injector, so can't say anything more about them. Really, it is sorta unnerving the first time to inject yourself, but, if done properly self injection to the penis is very easy and minimally painful. I find that I never feel it anymore. Part of making it painless is using the proper needle (30 or 31 ga., 1/2 or 5/16 inch, .5cc or 1cc insulin syringe) and knowing how to inject. Most guys here have started doing the plump and hold injection technique, using a penis pump to fill the penis about 1/4 with blood, then using a ring to hold it in and then injecting. This presents the needle with a good inflated cavernous cavity filled with some blood, making it easy to tell by feel when you are in the correct place, as the resistance drops when the needle is in the cavity, then the ring holds the drug in for a few minutes, maximizing the time that the drug has to adsorb into the tissue, resulting in the need for less drug and for much better erections by complete adsorption before releasing the ring and proceeding....

It is a matter of prep, trial and error, and if prepped right, there won't be any errors, smilewinkgrin
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN


VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 2:05 PM (GMT -6)   
OHHHH, I will get Kent to read all of this when he gets home. You have really explained it well and I think this is going to be a big help. I guess when you have never relied on something like this in your life and things just go along, you don't realize and it gets frustrating. I see now that it can be just a part of another day and a change that can be lived with. I feel so much for what y'all go through but could never ever know. Seeing him so down just hurts.
I hope to get him to email you. Just some reassurance from someone else would be what he needs right now.
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4848
   Posted 12/10/2009 2:30 PM (GMT -6)   
Cindy - pardon the pun-> Food for Thought
 
Have Mr Kent close eyes - you give injection.

VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 2:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Me!?! Suppose I hit the wrong place!!!
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 12/10/2009 2:41 PM (GMT -6)   
With YOUR eyes open you won't. smilewinkgrin
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP 110gms.- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
24 mts: PSA's: .04 each test since surgery, Bimix .3ml PRN or Trimix .15ml PRN


VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 3:18 PM (GMT -6)   
LOL. Thanks!
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


Piano
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 847
   Posted 12/10/2009 4:24 PM (GMT -6)   
When I used injections, I stretched my penis out and bravely looked away while my non-medical wife did the jab. I didn't pump beforehand, but found some constriction (just a few rubber bands) at injection time and for 3 minutes after gave 100% reliability.

I also marked the target with a sticky label. That helps to get the jab just where you want, although the exact position is not at all critical.
Pre-op:
Age 63 at diagnosis, now 64.
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4 of 12 cores.
Operation:
Non-nerve sparing RRP on 7 March 2008.
Two nights in hospital; catheter out after 7 days.
Post-op:
Continent; no pads needed from the get-go.
Pathology showed organ confined and negative margins. Gleason downgraded to 4+4=8.
PSAs:
6-week : <0.05
7-month: <0.05
13-month: 0.07 (start of a trend?)
19-month: 0.09 (maybe)
ED:
After a learning curve, Bimix injections (0.2ml) worked well. From 14 months, occasional nocturnal erections. Have "graduated" to just the pump.


VA Jazz
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 12/10/2009 5:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Cindy - Bremo Pharmacy on Staples Mill Road does Trimix and Syringes. They have good relationship with VA Urology
Age when Diagnosed - 50
Current Age - 51
 
Diagnosed 12/3/07
Gleason 3+3 - Both sides of Prostate
RRP 2/19/08
 
2 Follow-up Procedures for Bladder Neck Contracture (Cystoscopy)
 
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Post Op PSA's - Negligible


VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 6:06 PM (GMT -6)   
HI Va Jazz.,
I didn't know they did it. When we started with this were told South River Pharmacy in the West End. We pay 80.00. Is it less expensive at Bremo? The doctor we used was Sam Graham..use to be with Va Urology, now heads up cancer center at Johnston Willis and works part time at his practice. Unfortunantly we haven't seen him since the surgery. New docs have taken his patients. Thank you for the info. I hope you are doing well in your recovery.
Cindy

Piano...did she handle it ok? Is she normally squemish and could do this ok? I'm going to try it when we get new needles. Cross your fingers!
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
Aug 08 PSA 0.04 Yay Again!!
Nov 08 PSA 0
Mar 09  0


VA Jazz
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 12/10/2009 6:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Cindy,

I have pretty good policy with BC/BS, so it was only $20. I do know that it less expensive retail than your general ED drugs. One drawback is that you cannot call ahead. You have to wait while it is compounded.

Thank you for your concern. The recovery is going pretty well. I have to amend my profile as I have had 2 more quarters with <.01 PSA.

Cheers,

Bob
Age when Diagnosed - 50
Current Age - 51
 
Diagnosed 12/3/07
Gleason 3+3 - Both sides of Prostate
RRP 2/19/08
 
2 Follow-up Procedures for Bladder Neck Contracture (Cystoscopy)
 
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Post Op PSA's - Negligible


Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 12/10/2009 6:46 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Cindy!,
Give Kent my best. You guys will get it right...Great news on the zeros, though...

Love ya, sweet lady!

Tony
Prostate Cancer Forum Co-Moderator


VaFan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 203
   Posted 12/10/2009 7:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Love you too, Tony!!
Age 52 Kent Cindy 50
January 08 PSA 5.2 round of antibiotics went to 4.3
February 08 another round of antibiotics went to 4.2
March 17,08 had biopsy, 2 days later told cancer was on
one entire side of prostate.
Gleason 3+3
Doctor thinks its best to get the whole prostate with Perineal  Prostatectomy.
Surgery scheduled for this Thursday April 10th. Only took 1 1/2 hours. In recovery 1 hour.  Both nerves were spared.
Home 4-11. Cath out 4-22. Incision looks completly healed on the outside by 4-25.  Incontinence "a thing of the past" as of 5-28
lst PSA 0.04 June 3. YAY!!!
July 08 (3mths post op) Cialis 10 mg every other day. Right now, things are not looking so good in that department. Back on Viagra and ordered the pump 11-08
All zeros from here on out!


mvesr
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 823
   Posted 12/10/2009 9:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Kent and Cindy

I have been a police officer for almost 36 years and have seen and endured a lot in that time, but giving myself a shot there is the hardest thing I have ever tried to do. I still can't do it but my wife does it for me and there is nothing she would not do to help me. I am really fortunate to have a wife like her.

Mika
age at dx 54 now 57
psa at dx 4.3
got the bad news 1/29/07
open surgery Duke Medical Center 5-29-07
never more than 2 pads
ED is getting better
the shots work great, still can't give them to myself
two years of zero's

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