Not endorsing Radiation..but education Snipet #3-Strums Book p124-128

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zufus
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   Posted 12/11/2009 4:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Examples of some info about Neutron rays used in fight PCa and other types, not only is this protocol not the same as others, but even among all the types available there are all kinds of differences (in those too)if one were to analyze what is possible and available. This herein is Neutron rays (rare and not many locations or qualified people to use such power, too) It requires a Cyclotron machine (huge and costly), errors via the rad-doc could be huge is my estimation on this. The rad-doc administerd this in person and only with him and in a highly specialize room with steel/lead door that was about 1' thick....looked like a max. security prison setup. When doing the IMRT radiations after, his staff did all that and he was not present that I saw.
 
One study (p 127 in book) the results were 5 yr. actuarial clinical local-regional failure rate was 32% for photons(IMRT) but only 11% for neutron beam. Also psa values were elvevated in 17% of neutron-treated pateints and in 45% of photon-treated patients at 5 yrs. in this study apparently.
 
( p126) Fast neutrons have the ability to eradicate bulky tumors because, unlike low LET radiation(which is the other rays used), neutrons do not depend on the presence of oxygen to kill the tumor" the others do. "( "zufus words"= it makes a difference here)
 
(p 125) Neutrons are created by sending 66 MeV(Mega electron-Volts)protons into a beryllium target to produce high energy neutrons. The realtive biological effectiveness (RBE) of neutrons is so high that the required tumor dose is approximately one-third the dose used with photons, electrons, or protons. The basis for the higher (RBE) of neutron beam radiations appears to be related to their ability to cause double-stranded beaks in DNA, which are generally lethal to the cells that sustain them. Therefore the full course of NBT is delivered in 10-12 treatments vs. the 30-40 treatmenst used with the low LET forms of RT.
 
There are different protocols and combos using neutron+photon rays, so the possiblities get greater on what to deliver a patient. I did this type of treatment at Karmanos (Detroit which is also under DMC & Wayne State University-all the same place in effect) via Dr. Jeff Forman  (signed off on the waiver as I asked for the highest doseage level and to do both rays, I remember doing 10 sessions of Neutron 1st & I think it was 24 sessions of IMRT(Photon) thereafter). Can't say I suffered any nasty long terms effects, had the fatigue thing about half way into it all and at the end also and some urgency for finding a bathroom. But went basically well as far as I tell now 7 yrs.+ since finished that.
 
This type of radiation can be used on other cancers and patients looking for prehaps the better chances for kill ratio on the nasty cells might atleast find out if this kind of data holds true for their type(s) of cancer...I heard it is used on different types at the Karmanos Cancer Inst.
 
Still not saying anyone has to do this one vs. Proton, IMTRT or whatever, it is a choice that is not well known. In my own case stats were very bad looking so did ADT3 prior and thereafter (2 yrs. total) and since no surgery, wanted the highest radiation I could get and my prostate was so well loaded with PCa that brachy seeds did not look like an easy way to go, plus I did not want to travel away for weeks to do: RCOG or Dattoli (but considered them too).  So far I am pleased with the outcome and my side effects are not seemingly an issue, ED thing is normal for all the hormone drugs and radiation combined...so I have to let it be. Just glad to be singing and playing guitar and working in Michigan (lol-that is looking rare now).
 
All good someone else could post about the benefits of Proton beam or IMRT with Tomo, Cyberknife and such. Or the various brachy seeds & IMRT choices that are available of which they have choices, too. Not all protocols are equal exactly or the same no matter whever you go, they also can vary the rays doseage levels and the rad/doc would have to have some analysis to figure dosemetrics stuff.
 
Dx-2002  (current psa now  varies between  .4-1.0  last test  .8 down from 2-3 weeks prior )
 
Peace on earth

Post Edited (zufus) : 12/11/2009 2:32:15 PM (GMT-7)


Purgatory
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Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 12/11/2009 7:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Brother Sonny is undergoing 35 treatments of IMRT via TOMO as we speak, and I just finished 39 treatments of IMRT via Novalis. Both of ours are due to post surgery failure.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out  38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 in 35 days, 12/7/9 - Cath #10 in place


zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 12/11/2009 10:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Best to you both of you guys, you will just have to monitor and probably for a long while. You don't necessarily see immediate drop like when prostate is removed, but you knew that. Hang in there brother.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 12/11/2009 10:46 PM (GMT -6)   
Yeah, thats what my dear rad. doctor said, the PSA I will have done a week from Monday will be my new post SRT base. She did stress, however, and I am curious if you agree with this statement. That since I don't have a prostate, there should never, ever be any kind of rise from this new base, not even .01, because if it were local, there would now be nothing left to produce measurable PSA. She said, of course if you are doing RT, including seeds, you still have a prostate, and it will still produce measurable PSA.

The test coming up not sweating a bit, just a new line in the sand. The follow up in March will have my attention.

David in SC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out  38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - began IMRT SRT - 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 in 35 days, 12/7/9 - Cath #10 in place


zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 12/11/2009 11:47 PM (GMT -6)   
That sounds correct with no prostate, of course if cells lurk those are the sob's we don't want to see living(they can give off psa). The course of actions should it be needed to treat further are usually hormone therapies, other drugs (many types), chemo, leukine, keto and such.
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